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Episode One: Getting the Land
Liz Brownlee
Are you ready?
Alex Chambers
I am.
Liz Brownlee
I think that's your line.
Alex Chambers
Yup. All right. I think you could probably just go ahead with the hello part.
Liz Brownlee
OK
Liz Brownlee
OK. Hey, everybody, I'm Liz Brownlee. I own and run Nightfall Farm.
Alex Chambers
Actually, you know what? I'm just going to interrupt you. That was that was great, but I wonder if you could just add in at some point in the beginning where, say, where we are?
Liz Brownlee
Oh yes. Mavourneen farm outside of Bloomington.
Alex Chambers
Yeah. That seems good.
Liz Brownlee
OK, let's give it a go.
Alex Chambers
OK.
Liz Brownlee
All right. Hello, hello, everyone. Liz Brownlee here, I own and run Nightfall Farm in Crothersville, Indiana, with my husband Nate, I'm also the president of the Hoosier Young Farmers Coalition. And I'm really excited to be here at Mavourneen Farm outside of Bloomington, Indiana.
Alex Chambers
Me too.
Liz Brownlee
Yes. And this is Alex Chambers. He's producing this podcast.
Alex Chambers
Yes. Hello. Welcome to the Hoosier Young Farmer podcast.
Liz Brownlee
Our goal is to bring you voices of farmers here in Indiana, farmers you probably haven't heard of, farmers you might not picture when you picture farmers in Indiana.
Alex Chambers
Right. Like, who do you picture?
Liz Brownlee
Oh, let me give you the highlight reel. So I picture Anne, a 30-something woman. She's a first generation farmer and she's building a thriving veggie operation. Plus, creating a food hub that helps other farmers distribute their food and sell more local food. I picture Freida. She's a former nurse and now an urban farmer up in Gary, and she's raising veggies and goats and honeybees in her community and for her community. I picture Genesis and Eli delivering their organic veggies every Wednesday, year-round, 20 different restaurants every Wednesday. It's pretty remarkable. And that sort of like highlight reel makes me happy and keeps me going on a hard day. And I guess that's the beauty of the project, actually is that the whole goal here is to kind of break that like sepia toned stereotype of who a farmer is in Indiana. Like when people picture a farmer here, they picture like an older white guy in plaid on his combine in a cornfield, you know, and with this podcast, we get a picture or you get a capture, full color updated narrative about farming in Indiana and try to amplify the voices of underrepresented farmers like women and BIPOC farmers and beginning farmers and first generation farmers. And we're going to talk about big issues, but mostly we're going to shut up and hear from the farmers themselves. And I think that's good. You can see I get a little excited about all of this.
Alex Chambers
Yeah, I was really impressed with the voices the team managed to collect, just like from all over the state.
Liz Brownlee
Right. And so every episode will have sort of a handful of those voices talking about something that's important to Indiana's farmers. Like this episode, which is all about land acquisition. The key with land access is that it's a big deal for farmers. Finding your farmland, especially for folks in the first 10 years of farming just getting started is tough. You know, the average American farmer is male, he's white and he's 59 and a half years old ish. And so he's thinking about retiring. And in the next nine years, something like 400,000 acres of land are going to change hands as that whole generation of farmers retires. And so 400,000 acres picture that that is Texas, California and Montana combined. There's a lot of land. And so it could be this really big opportunity for changing how we care for the land in this country, how we feed our communities, who gets to own land and who gets to build wealth. But at the same time, a lot of that farmland will probably be developed, and a lot of it will be consolidated in to bigger and bigger farms. So for folks farming on a small scale like I do or in urban spaces, land access is actually like the number one hurdle all across the country and here in Indiana.
Alex Chambers
Wow.
Liz Brownlee
OK, so I'm going to duck out now so we can hear from the farmers themselves.
Mardean Roach
You know, we started looking and we could not find anything. We kept on finding farms that were, needed so much work that they wanted a extreme amount of money for that we had finally just gave up. And John told me to quit looking. He's like, You're done. Stop.
Nicci Keaton
Yeah, you're looking for that diamond in the rough, for sure.
Megan Ayers
And we just couldn't find anything that was even remotely affordable. So even even, you know, like renting an apartment seemed kind of out of the realm of possibility for us. And so we just began to expand our our search and we were expanding and expanding and expanding. And we ended up in Deputy Indiana, which is about an hour outside of Louisville.
Freida Graves
Pastor Curtis Whittaker of Progressive Community Church had a vision of Faith CDC, and he wanted to do a community built corporation based around agriculture and healthy eating and learning and education and all along those things. So the way it came about, the City of Gary, he asked the City of Gary for some land, it was just sitting there. No one was using this next to the church. No one was using this land. Nobody was on the land. It was just old, abandoned houses.
Nicci Keaton
You know, we we rented for several years and then we finally bought a house and it was on five acres and we're like, we made it! We've got five acres, this beautiful house. You know, we had what, two sows and a boar and we do a couple dozen pigs. And then we quickly learned that, OK, we've we've reached our limits on this land.
Sharrona Moore
Actually, in 2016, I wrote to Monarch Beverage. I said, you guys have twenty five liquor stores in this neighborhood that you service and there are three grocery stores. The three main grocery stores in our neighborhood are along Pendleton Pike. There is no bus that goes down Pendleton Pike. So we're talking about a low income neighborhood with low access to food, little to no access to transportation and no grocery stores.
Sharrona Moore
When I reached out to them, my proposal was that people can get to beer and alcohol quicker than they can get to anything fresh. And you guys are servicing all these liquor stores, but you have all of this land here right in the middle of this neighborhood that you're just cutting once a month and you're not doing anything with it. Let's put a garden here that will grow food for the pantries.
Megan Ayers
I was doing some urban agriculture in Cincinnati for about six years and had a pretty thriving CSA going in my neighborhood. My husband and I began to talk about the possibilities of moving to a place where we had some land. And so he is the most, well, we're both mobile as far as our jobs are concerned. So he found a job in Louisville and we began to search for a place to live.
Mardean Roach
When we moved here to Indiana, we had plans on going back to southern Illinois. We were not going to stay here at all. But about a year into it, we realized how much we really did like this area and that we would like to make this area our home and several, probably about two or three years after that, we started looking actively at larger tracts of land because we were sitting on seven acres and just didn't have the opportunity for any growth. You know, when you're able to only cut hay or graze goats, you really didn't have a choice of growing anywhere.
Armonda Riggs
So we couldn't afford more land than what we had in Iowa. And there we had three and a half acres and we couldn't afford more than that there.
Ben Riggs
And that's kind of goes to why we bought the farm we did is tillable land is much more expensive, than non-tillable land, especially in Iowa, but even so in Indiana. And so, you know, to buy 30 acres of tillable land in Indiana would have been way out of our price range. And that's the, that's the dilemma. You know, do you take out a couple of million dollar loan to buy that? We decided not to.
Megan Ayers
Everywhere we looked was the price of land was just really out of our reach. And we both work full time and we both actually have part time jobs on top of our full time jobs as well. And so we were really surprised that it was so difficult to get a couple of acres. We figured it wouldn't be so hard. And then once we found a place that we liked and we could afford, then we ran into some issues with financing because a traditional, we couldn't get a traditional mortgage for the farm. And then when we were told to go to the FSA, the FSA, well, we were told to go to banks that give farm loans. And so the farm loan people said that we couldn't get farm loans because we didn't have any agricultural collateral. So... cause we came from the city.
Freida Graves
It took a couple of years for them to OK it, but when they did OK, they donated the land to us. So where the farm is was actually, we have about an acre it's not a very big farm. We have little bit over an acre of land there. Where the farm is, was actually houses, blighted, abandoned houses. They tore down for us. The city actually tore down for us, and then they cultivated the land. They came out and they just cultivated and put the sand down and everything so that we could grow on that lot.
Nicci Keaton
And we started renting a house, and it was a couple of acres, and we asked the landlord if he'd let us use it because he wasn't using it, and he said, sure, go ahead and trade me for some chickens. So that's what we did. You know, that's how we bartered. And then we found the five acres and that was much more attainable five acres and a little house.
Armonda Riggs
We had a budget and we knew we needed to stick within that and we needed, you know, these qualities in it and the property we found had been on the market for twenty six days and we were driving from Iowa to come and look at it. So we came and look at it and then we came back and looked at it. And then we said, OK, let's put in an offer.
Mardean Roach
I just happened to be online one morning and something popped on the screen and I seen this farm. I called the lady and she ended up being the granddaughter of the original owners of this farm. And she's like, Oh, I'll have my dad meet ya out there. So John was working 2nd shift, and I woke him up about two hours before he was supposed to get up that day. And I'm like, John, you got to get up. I'll buy you a Mountain Dew on the way to where we're going I got a surprise. And he knew what was up. I mean, he he knew full well what I probably was doing, and we pulled up on the farm. And, you know, we both knew when we were here that this was something we were very interested in.
Nicci Keaton
We were very, very lucky.
Ben Riggs
It was at the max of our budget. And we were OK with that, though, because it provided us with such wonderful opportunities, that was really hard for us to be like. No, we, you know, we've already compromise on quite a bit. I mean, like I said, I only have two and a half acres of of tillable. So that was something that we were like, OK, this is what we're going to work with and we're going to do what we got to do and we're rolling with it.
Nicci Keaton
And we did so much on that five acres. I mean, if you are really careful with your grazing methods and and how many animals you're putting on your land, you can actually do quite a bit on five acres.
Sharrona Moore
We have 7.6 acres in the middle of the city. Yeah, we're right at 46 and Post Road and it's high, it's a high urban area to say the least,
Mardean Roach
But land in this area, it was it was either high or it was, you know, vacant land with no structures, no home on it. So we were, we sort of needed a place that we could just move right into and start something up immediately and this fit that bill.
Megan Ayers
Yeah, we actually were homeless for a couple of weeks in the transition because we we didn't think our house would sell really fast and it sold immediately. And so then we were kind of like just trying to find something and trying to find something. And when the financing fell through and when the loan officer was asking me if I had tractors or, you know, like just something, I, you know, I joked and I was like, I have like 30 menopausal hens. You know, what's that going to get me? She did not think that was funny. So, you know, it was it was really touch and go there for a while.
Nicci Keaton
Actually, my in-laws, they lived on 20 acres in Russiaville and they wanted to be closer to their grandkids. And so we talked about, you know, what, if we go in together, we can get a bigger chunk of land and we could live on the same piece of property. So you know, you could be close to your grandkids so we can help you out. It's kind of a win-win for everybody. And after many years of searching, we found this beautiful place and it's absolutely perfect.
Megan Ayers
And then, you know, once we finally did get the farm, it was, you know, more uphill battles with dealing with the soil and just trying to begin amending it, really, especially with no tractor. We don't have any tractor. We have nothing, you know?
Mardean Roach
Oh, I was just going to say, I think one of the biggest things that has us going in this direction were our farms not viable for itself financially is because we had to come in and buy a farm. I mean, we didn't have anything to step into it was us working for it. So we just had to start from the ground up. Then luckily, we found an awesome place. It's a very, very old farm. But the infrastructure needs a lot of work. You know, we're always working on fence. We just got done running 1700 foot of fence in December. So the the work that's to be done and then also just the equipment that we're realizing.
John Roach
My tractors are from the sixties. I have I have some from the 50s. I mean, the tractors are very outdated and equipments always needing worked on or something. But fortunately, I know how to work on that stuff. So that helps also.
Ben Riggs
Another aspect of it was we have no intention of having employees. So, you know, buying 20 acres of tillable land, we would never be able to work all that ourselves.
Armonda Riggs
The way we want to work it, yes, we enjoy having, you know, as little impact on our land as possible and doing our farming endeavors. So, you know, we're not out here running a tiller to make, you know, product every few weeks.
Mardean Roach
We bought the farm from two brothers and the one brother is in his 80s now and he still comes here to the farm, brings his dog, runs. You know, we'll stay here on the porch and talk with us or go out and do stuff with us on the farm. But he always tells the story that his dad would say that this farm, the soil on this farm was so poor that a rabbit had to pack its lunch to get across.
Nicci Keaton
We were just happened to be fortunate enough to get this one hundred and fifty acres and I'll never leave.
Sharrona Moore
But we're we're growing a lot of good stuff in the hood.
Armonda Riggs
Yeah, those are all things that that work for us, and that's why we have the land access story that we have.
Liz Brownlee
And there you have it folks, this is the Hoosier Young Farmers Podcast brought to you with support from Indiana Humanities, the Hoosier Young Farmers Coalition and the National Young Farmers Coalition. To learn more about how we're updating the narrative on food and farming here in Indiana. You can go to Hoosier YFC dot O R G backslash Stories. Thanks to the farmers who lent their voices to this episode. That's Megan Ayers, Frieda Graves, Nicky Keaton, Sharrona Moore, Armonda and Ben Riggs, and Mardean and John Roach. Thanks to Andrew Raridon and Jessica Murnane for coordinating these interviews and Andrew Raridon again and Rachel Brandenburg for conducting the interviews.
Alex Chambers
Our theme music is from Amy O, and we have additional music from Ramón Monrás-Sender. Our host Liz Brownlee got this project off the ground and it was produced by me, Alex Chambers. Thanks for listening.
Are you ready?
Alex Chambers
I am.
Liz Brownlee
I think that's your line.
Alex Chambers
Yup. All right. I think you could probably just go ahead with the hello part.
Liz Brownlee
OK
Liz Brownlee
OK. Hey, everybody, I'm Liz Brownlee. I own and run Nightfall Farm.
Alex Chambers
Actually, you know what? I'm just going to interrupt you. That was that was great, but I wonder if you could just add in at some point in the beginning where, say, where we are?
Liz Brownlee
Oh yes. Mavourneen farm outside of Bloomington.
Alex Chambers
Yeah. That seems good.
Liz Brownlee
OK, let's give it a go.
Alex Chambers
OK.
Liz Brownlee
All right. Hello, hello, everyone. Liz Brownlee here, I own and run Nightfall Farm in Crothersville, Indiana, with my husband Nate, I'm also the president of the Hoosier Young Farmers Coalition. And I'm really excited to be here at Mavourneen Farm outside of Bloomington, Indiana.
Alex Chambers
Me too.
Liz Brownlee
Yes. And this is Alex Chambers. He's producing this podcast.
Alex Chambers
Yes. Hello. Welcome to the Hoosier Young Farmer podcast.
Liz Brownlee
Our goal is to bring you voices of farmers here in Indiana, farmers you probably haven't heard of, farmers you might not picture when you picture farmers in Indiana.
Alex Chambers
Right. Like, who do you picture?
Liz Brownlee
Oh, let me give you the highlight reel. So I picture Anne, a 30-something woman. She's a first generation farmer and she's building a thriving veggie operation. Plus, creating a food hub that helps other farmers distribute their food and sell more local food. I picture Freida. She's a former nurse and now an urban farmer up in Gary, and she's raising veggies and goats and honeybees in her community and for her community. I picture Genesis and Eli delivering their organic veggies every Wednesday, year-round, 20 different restaurants every Wednesday. It's pretty remarkable. And that sort of like highlight reel makes me happy and keeps me going on a hard day. And I guess that's the beauty of the project, actually is that the whole goal here is to kind of break that like sepia toned stereotype of who a farmer is in Indiana. Like when people picture a farmer here, they picture like an older white guy in plaid on his combine in a cornfield, you know, and with this podcast, we get a picture or you get a capture, full color updated narrative about farming in Indiana and try to amplify the voices of underrepresented farmers like women and BIPOC farmers and beginning farmers and first generation farmers. And we're going to talk about big issues, but mostly we're going to shut up and hear from the farmers themselves. And I think that's good. You can see I get a little excited about all of this.
Alex Chambers
Yeah, I was really impressed with the voices the team managed to collect, just like from all over the state.
Liz Brownlee
Right. And so every episode will have sort of a handful of those voices talking about something that's important to Indiana's farmers. Like this episode, which is all about land acquisition. The key with land access is that it's a big deal for farmers. Finding your farmland, especially for folks in the first 10 years of farming just getting started is tough. You know, the average American farmer is male, he's white and he's 59 and a half years old ish. And so he's thinking about retiring. And in the next nine years, something like 400,000 acres of land are going to change hands as that whole generation of farmers retires. And so 400,000 acres picture that that is Texas, California and Montana combined. There's a lot of land. And so it could be this really big opportunity for changing how we care for the land in this country, how we feed our communities, who gets to own land and who gets to build wealth. But at the same time, a lot of that farmland will probably be developed, and a lot of it will be consolidated in to bigger and bigger farms. So for folks farming on a small scale like I do or in urban spaces, land access is actually like the number one hurdle all across the country and here in Indiana.
Alex Chambers
Wow.
Liz Brownlee
OK, so I'm going to duck out now so we can hear from the farmers themselves.
Mardean Roach
You know, we started looking and we could not find anything. We kept on finding farms that were, needed so much work that they wanted a extreme amount of money for that we had finally just gave up. And John told me to quit looking. He's like, You're done. Stop.
Nicci Keaton
Yeah, you're looking for that diamond in the rough, for sure.
Megan Ayers
And we just couldn't find anything that was even remotely affordable. So even even, you know, like renting an apartment seemed kind of out of the realm of possibility for us. And so we just began to expand our our search and we were expanding and expanding and expanding. And we ended up in Deputy Indiana, which is about an hour outside of Louisville.
Freida Graves
Pastor Curtis Whittaker of Progressive Community Church had a vision of Faith CDC, and he wanted to do a community built corporation based around agriculture and healthy eating and learning and education and all along those things. So the way it came about, the City of Gary, he asked the City of Gary for some land, it was just sitting there. No one was using this next to the church. No one was using this land. Nobody was on the land. It was just old, abandoned houses.
Nicci Keaton
You know, we we rented for several years and then we finally bought a house and it was on five acres and we're like, we made it! We've got five acres, this beautiful house. You know, we had what, two sows and a boar and we do a couple dozen pigs. And then we quickly learned that, OK, we've we've reached our limits on this land.
Sharrona Moore
Actually, in 2016, I wrote to Monarch Beverage. I said, you guys have twenty five liquor stores in this neighborhood that you service and there are three grocery stores. The three main grocery stores in our neighborhood are along Pendleton Pike. There is no bus that goes down Pendleton Pike. So we're talking about a low income neighborhood with low access to food, little to no access to transportation and no grocery stores.
Sharrona Moore
When I reached out to them, my proposal was that people can get to beer and alcohol quicker than they can get to anything fresh. And you guys are servicing all these liquor stores, but you have all of this land here right in the middle of this neighborhood that you're just cutting once a month and you're not doing anything with it. Let's put a garden here that will grow food for the pantries.
Megan Ayers
I was doing some urban agriculture in Cincinnati for about six years and had a pretty thriving CSA going in my neighborhood. My husband and I began to talk about the possibilities of moving to a place where we had some land. And so he is the most, well, we're both mobile as far as our jobs are concerned. So he found a job in Louisville and we began to search for a place to live.
Mardean Roach
When we moved here to Indiana, we had plans on going back to southern Illinois. We were not going to stay here at all. But about a year into it, we realized how much we really did like this area and that we would like to make this area our home and several, probably about two or three years after that, we started looking actively at larger tracts of land because we were sitting on seven acres and just didn't have the opportunity for any growth. You know, when you're able to only cut hay or graze goats, you really didn't have a choice of growing anywhere.
Armonda Riggs
So we couldn't afford more land than what we had in Iowa. And there we had three and a half acres and we couldn't afford more than that there.
Ben Riggs
And that's kind of goes to why we bought the farm we did is tillable land is much more expensive, than non-tillable land, especially in Iowa, but even so in Indiana. And so, you know, to buy 30 acres of tillable land in Indiana would have been way out of our price range. And that's the, that's the dilemma. You know, do you take out a couple of million dollar loan to buy that? We decided not to.
Megan Ayers
Everywhere we looked was the price of land was just really out of our reach. And we both work full time and we both actually have part time jobs on top of our full time jobs as well. And so we were really surprised that it was so difficult to get a couple of acres. We figured it wouldn't be so hard. And then once we found a place that we liked and we could afford, then we ran into some issues with financing because a traditional, we couldn't get a traditional mortgage for the farm. And then when we were told to go to the FSA, the FSA, well, we were told to go to banks that give farm loans. And so the farm loan people said that we couldn't get farm loans because we didn't have any agricultural collateral. So... cause we came from the city.
Freida Graves
It took a couple of years for them to OK it, but when they did OK, they donated the land to us. So where the farm is was actually, we have about an acre it's not a very big farm. We have little bit over an acre of land there. Where the farm is, was actually houses, blighted, abandoned houses. They tore down for us. The city actually tore down for us, and then they cultivated the land. They came out and they just cultivated and put the sand down and everything so that we could grow on that lot.
Nicci Keaton
And we started renting a house, and it was a couple of acres, and we asked the landlord if he'd let us use it because he wasn't using it, and he said, sure, go ahead and trade me for some chickens. So that's what we did. You know, that's how we bartered. And then we found the five acres and that was much more attainable five acres and a little house.
Armonda Riggs
We had a budget and we knew we needed to stick within that and we needed, you know, these qualities in it and the property we found had been on the market for twenty six days and we were driving from Iowa to come and look at it. So we came and look at it and then we came back and looked at it. And then we said, OK, let's put in an offer.
Mardean Roach
I just happened to be online one morning and something popped on the screen and I seen this farm. I called the lady and she ended up being the granddaughter of the original owners of this farm. And she's like, Oh, I'll have my dad meet ya out there. So John was working 2nd shift, and I woke him up about two hours before he was supposed to get up that day. And I'm like, John, you got to get up. I'll buy you a Mountain Dew on the way to where we're going I got a surprise. And he knew what was up. I mean, he he knew full well what I probably was doing, and we pulled up on the farm. And, you know, we both knew when we were here that this was something we were very interested in.
Nicci Keaton
We were very, very lucky.
Ben Riggs
It was at the max of our budget. And we were OK with that, though, because it provided us with such wonderful opportunities, that was really hard for us to be like. No, we, you know, we've already compromise on quite a bit. I mean, like I said, I only have two and a half acres of of tillable. So that was something that we were like, OK, this is what we're going to work with and we're going to do what we got to do and we're rolling with it.
Nicci Keaton
And we did so much on that five acres. I mean, if you are really careful with your grazing methods and and how many animals you're putting on your land, you can actually do quite a bit on five acres.
Sharrona Moore
We have 7.6 acres in the middle of the city. Yeah, we're right at 46 and Post Road and it's high, it's a high urban area to say the least,
Mardean Roach
But land in this area, it was it was either high or it was, you know, vacant land with no structures, no home on it. So we were, we sort of needed a place that we could just move right into and start something up immediately and this fit that bill.
Megan Ayers
Yeah, we actually were homeless for a couple of weeks in the transition because we we didn't think our house would sell really fast and it sold immediately. And so then we were kind of like just trying to find something and trying to find something. And when the financing fell through and when the loan officer was asking me if I had tractors or, you know, like just something, I, you know, I joked and I was like, I have like 30 menopausal hens. You know, what's that going to get me? She did not think that was funny. So, you know, it was it was really touch and go there for a while.
Nicci Keaton
Actually, my in-laws, they lived on 20 acres in Russiaville and they wanted to be closer to their grandkids. And so we talked about, you know, what, if we go in together, we can get a bigger chunk of land and we could live on the same piece of property. So you know, you could be close to your grandkids so we can help you out. It's kind of a win-win for everybody. And after many years of searching, we found this beautiful place and it's absolutely perfect.
Megan Ayers
And then, you know, once we finally did get the farm, it was, you know, more uphill battles with dealing with the soil and just trying to begin amending it, really, especially with no tractor. We don't have any tractor. We have nothing, you know?
Mardean Roach
Oh, I was just going to say, I think one of the biggest things that has us going in this direction were our farms not viable for itself financially is because we had to come in and buy a farm. I mean, we didn't have anything to step into it was us working for it. So we just had to start from the ground up. Then luckily, we found an awesome place. It's a very, very old farm. But the infrastructure needs a lot of work. You know, we're always working on fence. We just got done running 1700 foot of fence in December. So the the work that's to be done and then also just the equipment that we're realizing.
John Roach
My tractors are from the sixties. I have I have some from the 50s. I mean, the tractors are very outdated and equipments always needing worked on or something. But fortunately, I know how to work on that stuff. So that helps also.
Ben Riggs
Another aspect of it was we have no intention of having employees. So, you know, buying 20 acres of tillable land, we would never be able to work all that ourselves.
Armonda Riggs
The way we want to work it, yes, we enjoy having, you know, as little impact on our land as possible and doing our farming endeavors. So, you know, we're not out here running a tiller to make, you know, product every few weeks.
Mardean Roach
We bought the farm from two brothers and the one brother is in his 80s now and he still comes here to the farm, brings his dog, runs. You know, we'll stay here on the porch and talk with us or go out and do stuff with us on the farm. But he always tells the story that his dad would say that this farm, the soil on this farm was so poor that a rabbit had to pack its lunch to get across.
Nicci Keaton
We were just happened to be fortunate enough to get this one hundred and fifty acres and I'll never leave.
Sharrona Moore
But we're we're growing a lot of good stuff in the hood.
Armonda Riggs
Yeah, those are all things that that work for us, and that's why we have the land access story that we have.
Liz Brownlee
And there you have it folks, this is the Hoosier Young Farmers Podcast brought to you with support from Indiana Humanities, the Hoosier Young Farmers Coalition and the National Young Farmers Coalition. To learn more about how we're updating the narrative on food and farming here in Indiana. You can go to Hoosier YFC dot O R G backslash Stories. Thanks to the farmers who lent their voices to this episode. That's Megan Ayers, Frieda Graves, Nicky Keaton, Sharrona Moore, Armonda and Ben Riggs, and Mardean and John Roach. Thanks to Andrew Raridon and Jessica Murnane for coordinating these interviews and Andrew Raridon again and Rachel Brandenburg for conducting the interviews.
Alex Chambers
Our theme music is from Amy O, and we have additional music from Ramón Monrás-Sender. Our host Liz Brownlee got this project off the ground and it was produced by me, Alex Chambers. Thanks for listening.
Episode 2: Food Apartheid
Sibeko Jywanza
That bag of Doritos and that Faygo and that candy, if that's what's going to make my people feel good, if my daughter is going through a hard time, my son is going through a hard time and I know some peach rings and some gummy bears is going to make them feel good. I'm going to do what I can to make them feel good because we are going through so much.
Liz Brownlee
Hello, everyone, this is the Hoosier Young Farmer podcast. I'm Liz Brownlee, your host and president of the Hoosier Young Farmers Coalition and a farmer at Nightfall Farm. And I'm here with Alex Chambers, the producer of this podcast.
Alex Chambers
Hello. You just heard from Sibeko Jywanza. He is the director of food justice at Flanner House in Indianapolis, and he was talking about this thing that can get lost when we get excited about local food.
Liz Brownlee
Yeah, absolutely. So fruit, veggies, grass-fed meat, it's all a ton of work to grow, but the government doesn't subsidize it the way it supports those big fields of corn and soybeans that turn into those Doritos and Faygos,
Alex Chambers
Right, which can then put healthy local food out of reach for people who don't have a lot of money.
Liz Brownlee
Well, and it's not just about money. If there's no grocery store nearby, no place to buy local veggies, you're stuck. And so we're thinking about geography, and then we realize that race matters, too. So if you're black or Latino in this country, you're much more likely to live in an area where it's hard to get healthy food, and that's no accident. That's systemic racism,
Alex Chambers
Right. In this episode, we're going to hear from black farmers and urban farmers on why it's especially hard for their communities to get good food and what they're doing about that. So we'll get back to Sibeko and then the rest of the crew.
Sibeko Jywanza
There are people who, you know, no I'm not about to go spend a hundred and something dollars to prepare a meal for my family, I can get a pack of hot dogs for $5 and some buns and I'm feeding, you know, my family of four here. And that's what I have to. That's what I have. That's that's the only thing that I can do. And I don't have transportation, so I'm going down the street and getting it from the Family Dollar or the gas station. And that's what we're going to feed our family on.
Freida Graves
A lot of people don't have the transportation to drive out to Whole Foods and Meijers and places like that. So they're going to go where they can go, get to and what they can afford. And so the cheap, they can afford the cheaper food and more pork items. And, you know, things like that. That's what you're gonna get. And you can't really blame them because they have to be able to feed their families.
Joyce Randolph
So many people do not have access to healthy food through no fault of their own. It's where you live and that's a sad thing to say, but it is the truth
Daniel Garcia
From a policy standpoint like I, I feel like it's like it's hard for me to comprehend why there's such a lack of fresh food in the area. I just kind of wonder like what policies that were put into place influence that, you know.
Freida Graves
The areas are still down. Most of the houses that were built were built around a steel mill for people to live and work. And of course, the doctors and the lawyers and all like that had bigger houses and things like that. Most of the black people here came from the South. Their ancestors came from the south, let me put it that way because they're not the original ones, they came from the south, from Mississippi, Arkansas places along that line. About I think, ‘68, ‘69. Gary got it's first black Mayor. Great guy. At that point, there was a large exodus of Caucasian people that left the city. We had a thriving downtown. I mean, when I was a kid, you couldn't even walk on the sidewalks. The stores, they were downtown, like Sears and Penneys and Gortons and all. They made exodus to a place called Merrillville. Merrillville became a township first and then it was a city. They kinda left Gary and kind of a red line was drawn around Gary. People with the home loans and things of that nature that that kind of dried up a little bit. There was only certain places to go. And when I was growing up, we had A&P, Krogers, Jewels, all those stores. They are not here anymore. Let's just say I'm not going to use any names because I don't have anything against our grocery stores. Let's just say we ended up with a Johnnies, and Johnnies couldn't afford to bring in the more expensive, higher end food. So Johnnies went to the bar eight hot dogs and things like that, and the people couldn't afford to pay for the more expensive food.
Sibeko Jywanza
And then you have so much going on socially that people just want to feel good. And if that bag of Doritos and that Faygo and those things are going to be like that candy, if that's what's going to make my people feel good and my daughter is going through a hard time and my son is going through a hard time, and I know some peach rings and some gummy bears is going to make them feel good. I'm going to do what I can to make them feel good because we're going through so much. But, you know, tomatoes are not going to do the same thing that they can do, right? I mean, this is what it is. That's what young people are all about, right?
Freida Graves
OK, so my name is Freida Graves. I'm the Faith Farm administrator. I've been there for six years, six years and some months right now. Two children, married, live in Gary, Indiana. I've lived in Gary Indiana and my whole life.
Daniel Garcia
My name is Daniel Garcia. We have a small farm. We run Garcia's Gardens on the Far East side of Indianapolis.
Sibeko Jywanza
My name is Sibeko Jywanza, resident here in Indianapolis. I was born and raised here. I work for Flanner House, so Flanner House is a multi-service community center.
Sharrona Moore
I am Sharrona Moore. I am the garden manager at Lawrence Community Gardens.
Joyce Randolph
My name is Joyce Randolph. I'm owner of the Elephant Gardens. We are an urban farm here in the city of Indianapolis. We purchased the property on Sherman in 2013, and within that first two years there was a decline in the availability of food in our area. And I'd say the beginning of the third year, the grocery store down the street from us that had been there more than 40 years closed. I mean, literally the people were like given notice that day that they no longer had jobs.
Daniel Garcia
I mean, we had we had the double Double Eight stores shut down a few years ago. We had Marsh shut down.
Sibeko Jywanza
The neighborhood grocery stores were closing, first you had the Double Eights closing and the Marsh's were closing. Kroger and Wal-Mart were moving kind of on the outskirts of the of the city, or to downtown. And so with with 2012, I believe the Double Eight moved out of this neighborhood. And so the community has always been wanting to have a particular grocery store that they can go to within their neighborhood.
Sharrona Moore
In 2017, we started to really see our need to improve food access in our communities. And as I'm meaning our, I mean, people of color. My farm is at 46th and Post road, and that's a big, huge chunk of the Far East side community that's really struggling right now with access to food.
Joyce Randolph
We were like, OK, we really have to ramp up now. How can we help our community? And that is where we really jumped off being an actual urban farm in providing vegetables and things for not only just our neighborhood, then we branched out the following year into doing farmer's markets in various places in the city, and then we narrowed it down to like. But why do we grow here in this in our neighborhood? Put it in our truck and then take it to another neighborhood. Our people need food right here. So we started doing our farmer's markets right in our neighborhood.
Sibeko Jywanza
There is a term nationwide that's been going on called food apartheid, and that's what we use in terms of how how we're tackling this situation because systematically, there's a reason why communities, particularly communities with a lot of black people, have had these issues. And it's really been because it's business as usual when it comes to farmers, farmland, and when it comes to grocery stores, when it comes to who owns that food. When it comes to the policies that are built around food, they have been very much targeted on creating this food injustice that we have going on right now.
Freida Graves
I've never used food apartheid. That's not something that I would use now I would say, like I said earlier, yeah, we got cut out of a lot of things out of this area, especially African-American people of color, not just African-Americans, Latinos, indigenous people. You know, we did get cut out of a lot of things. We call it the food dump, they're dumping the cheaper items here. You know, we can sell them 10 of these for a dollar, but it's no nutritional value to it. We don't care that there's diseases that can be avoided if people were just to start eating healthy young and learned about health and nutrition and nutrients and their body young. So we call it a food dump, now that would be our terminology.
Sharrona Moore
A lot of America's history on agriculture was literally built on the backs of black people. So forming the Indiana Black Farmers Co-op was about providing mentors for people of color for providing a share, a space where we would be able to collectively and strategically grow similar and different crops for our markets, for our families to be able to feed, to feed our families. The white farmers were already doing that, but that's, its exclusive right? They aren't comfortable working with us a lot of times, and so we just felt like we needed to form our own network that was going to be hyper focused on our own community. We knew that the government would not come back and save us, that they are not planning to put any grocery stores back into our neighborhoods that in order for that to happen, our neighborhoods will have to be gentrified first. And so the best way to combat some of the issues that our community in particular was faced with it was with agriculture. And so that's why we formed the Co-op.
Joyce Randolph
We also have a what we call a beauty bodega.
Sibeko Jywanza
We created a small scale grocery store called Cleo's Bodega,
Joyce Randolph
which is based on eating healthy.
Sibeko Jywanza
And we also have a café inside that store. And so people are able to come and use Wi-Fi and and kind of sit and chill and get a smoothie and some coffee.
Joyce Randolph
What you put in makes you feel better, and when you feel better, then you are going to look better
Sibeko Jywanza
And also do some small scale shopping so you can shop for your week. It's really built for people within a neighborhood to just come and get a couple of things for dinner or for that week and to maintain themselves.
Joyce Randolph
We call it Beauty Bodega, but it's based on making you beautiful from the inside out.
Sharrona Moore
Like, you're a superhero, if you can grow food. People don't realize that, it's revolutionary.
Freida Graves
We get students out there for six weeks. We were in the winter time to learn about the eggs and the chickens and the vegetables and things like that. There's one young lady and she didn't come from our farm, but she started at Thea Bowman. She comes out now and she's in veterinary school, and she's the one whose giving our goats the vaccinations. But she was from Thea Bowman, and Thea Bowman was the first school that we worked with.
Sibeko Jywanza
One of our first participants in our Feed Program. I believe we grew some basil and bagged it up and was able to sell it. And the realization that he could make more money selling basil than actually packaging up weed and selling it kind of blew his mind. And it is a story that I always like to kind of start with because I don't think we understand that the hustler mentality that people have in terms of wanting to make money. And it's like, we don't want people to lose that because that's what America was built off of was that hustle mentality. What we want to do is switch the hustle in terms of what you're selling in the mentality of what's community. So that's one story that I always like try to keep in mind
Sharrona Moore
In 20 years I am hoping to end food apartheid, and within the next 20 years, I see each one of these children that come through our program, re-creating the vision over and over and over again. And so they can just go out in their backyard to get their eggs and their vegetables. And then, they might have to, Wal-Mart might have to be 30 minutes away.
Liz Brownlee
And there you have it, folks, this is the Hoosier Young Farmer podcast brought to you with support from Indiana Humanities, the Hoosier Young Farmers Coalition and the National Young Farmers Coalition. To learn more about how we're updating the narrative on food and farming here in Indiana go to Hoosier YFC dot O R G backslash Stories. Thanks to the farmers who lent their voices this episode. Daniel Garcia, Freida Graves, Sibeko Jywanza, Sharrona Moore and Joyce Randolph. Thanks to Andrew Raridon and Jessica Murnane for coordinating these interviews and Andrew Raridon again and Rachel Brandenburg for conducting the interviews.
Alex Chambers
Our theme music is from Amy O. and we have additional music from Ramón Monrás-Sender. Our host Liz Brownlee got this project off the ground and it was produced by me, Alex Chambers. Thanks for listening.
That bag of Doritos and that Faygo and that candy, if that's what's going to make my people feel good, if my daughter is going through a hard time, my son is going through a hard time and I know some peach rings and some gummy bears is going to make them feel good. I'm going to do what I can to make them feel good because we are going through so much.
Liz Brownlee
Hello, everyone, this is the Hoosier Young Farmer podcast. I'm Liz Brownlee, your host and president of the Hoosier Young Farmers Coalition and a farmer at Nightfall Farm. And I'm here with Alex Chambers, the producer of this podcast.
Alex Chambers
Hello. You just heard from Sibeko Jywanza. He is the director of food justice at Flanner House in Indianapolis, and he was talking about this thing that can get lost when we get excited about local food.
Liz Brownlee
Yeah, absolutely. So fruit, veggies, grass-fed meat, it's all a ton of work to grow, but the government doesn't subsidize it the way it supports those big fields of corn and soybeans that turn into those Doritos and Faygos,
Alex Chambers
Right, which can then put healthy local food out of reach for people who don't have a lot of money.
Liz Brownlee
Well, and it's not just about money. If there's no grocery store nearby, no place to buy local veggies, you're stuck. And so we're thinking about geography, and then we realize that race matters, too. So if you're black or Latino in this country, you're much more likely to live in an area where it's hard to get healthy food, and that's no accident. That's systemic racism,
Alex Chambers
Right. In this episode, we're going to hear from black farmers and urban farmers on why it's especially hard for their communities to get good food and what they're doing about that. So we'll get back to Sibeko and then the rest of the crew.
Sibeko Jywanza
There are people who, you know, no I'm not about to go spend a hundred and something dollars to prepare a meal for my family, I can get a pack of hot dogs for $5 and some buns and I'm feeding, you know, my family of four here. And that's what I have to. That's what I have. That's that's the only thing that I can do. And I don't have transportation, so I'm going down the street and getting it from the Family Dollar or the gas station. And that's what we're going to feed our family on.
Freida Graves
A lot of people don't have the transportation to drive out to Whole Foods and Meijers and places like that. So they're going to go where they can go, get to and what they can afford. And so the cheap, they can afford the cheaper food and more pork items. And, you know, things like that. That's what you're gonna get. And you can't really blame them because they have to be able to feed their families.
Joyce Randolph
So many people do not have access to healthy food through no fault of their own. It's where you live and that's a sad thing to say, but it is the truth
Daniel Garcia
From a policy standpoint like I, I feel like it's like it's hard for me to comprehend why there's such a lack of fresh food in the area. I just kind of wonder like what policies that were put into place influence that, you know.
Freida Graves
The areas are still down. Most of the houses that were built were built around a steel mill for people to live and work. And of course, the doctors and the lawyers and all like that had bigger houses and things like that. Most of the black people here came from the South. Their ancestors came from the south, let me put it that way because they're not the original ones, they came from the south, from Mississippi, Arkansas places along that line. About I think, ‘68, ‘69. Gary got it's first black Mayor. Great guy. At that point, there was a large exodus of Caucasian people that left the city. We had a thriving downtown. I mean, when I was a kid, you couldn't even walk on the sidewalks. The stores, they were downtown, like Sears and Penneys and Gortons and all. They made exodus to a place called Merrillville. Merrillville became a township first and then it was a city. They kinda left Gary and kind of a red line was drawn around Gary. People with the home loans and things of that nature that that kind of dried up a little bit. There was only certain places to go. And when I was growing up, we had A&P, Krogers, Jewels, all those stores. They are not here anymore. Let's just say I'm not going to use any names because I don't have anything against our grocery stores. Let's just say we ended up with a Johnnies, and Johnnies couldn't afford to bring in the more expensive, higher end food. So Johnnies went to the bar eight hot dogs and things like that, and the people couldn't afford to pay for the more expensive food.
Sibeko Jywanza
And then you have so much going on socially that people just want to feel good. And if that bag of Doritos and that Faygo and those things are going to be like that candy, if that's what's going to make my people feel good and my daughter is going through a hard time and my son is going through a hard time, and I know some peach rings and some gummy bears is going to make them feel good. I'm going to do what I can to make them feel good because we're going through so much. But, you know, tomatoes are not going to do the same thing that they can do, right? I mean, this is what it is. That's what young people are all about, right?
Freida Graves
OK, so my name is Freida Graves. I'm the Faith Farm administrator. I've been there for six years, six years and some months right now. Two children, married, live in Gary, Indiana. I've lived in Gary Indiana and my whole life.
Daniel Garcia
My name is Daniel Garcia. We have a small farm. We run Garcia's Gardens on the Far East side of Indianapolis.
Sibeko Jywanza
My name is Sibeko Jywanza, resident here in Indianapolis. I was born and raised here. I work for Flanner House, so Flanner House is a multi-service community center.
Sharrona Moore
I am Sharrona Moore. I am the garden manager at Lawrence Community Gardens.
Joyce Randolph
My name is Joyce Randolph. I'm owner of the Elephant Gardens. We are an urban farm here in the city of Indianapolis. We purchased the property on Sherman in 2013, and within that first two years there was a decline in the availability of food in our area. And I'd say the beginning of the third year, the grocery store down the street from us that had been there more than 40 years closed. I mean, literally the people were like given notice that day that they no longer had jobs.
Daniel Garcia
I mean, we had we had the double Double Eight stores shut down a few years ago. We had Marsh shut down.
Sibeko Jywanza
The neighborhood grocery stores were closing, first you had the Double Eights closing and the Marsh's were closing. Kroger and Wal-Mart were moving kind of on the outskirts of the of the city, or to downtown. And so with with 2012, I believe the Double Eight moved out of this neighborhood. And so the community has always been wanting to have a particular grocery store that they can go to within their neighborhood.
Sharrona Moore
In 2017, we started to really see our need to improve food access in our communities. And as I'm meaning our, I mean, people of color. My farm is at 46th and Post road, and that's a big, huge chunk of the Far East side community that's really struggling right now with access to food.
Joyce Randolph
We were like, OK, we really have to ramp up now. How can we help our community? And that is where we really jumped off being an actual urban farm in providing vegetables and things for not only just our neighborhood, then we branched out the following year into doing farmer's markets in various places in the city, and then we narrowed it down to like. But why do we grow here in this in our neighborhood? Put it in our truck and then take it to another neighborhood. Our people need food right here. So we started doing our farmer's markets right in our neighborhood.
Sibeko Jywanza
There is a term nationwide that's been going on called food apartheid, and that's what we use in terms of how how we're tackling this situation because systematically, there's a reason why communities, particularly communities with a lot of black people, have had these issues. And it's really been because it's business as usual when it comes to farmers, farmland, and when it comes to grocery stores, when it comes to who owns that food. When it comes to the policies that are built around food, they have been very much targeted on creating this food injustice that we have going on right now.
Freida Graves
I've never used food apartheid. That's not something that I would use now I would say, like I said earlier, yeah, we got cut out of a lot of things out of this area, especially African-American people of color, not just African-Americans, Latinos, indigenous people. You know, we did get cut out of a lot of things. We call it the food dump, they're dumping the cheaper items here. You know, we can sell them 10 of these for a dollar, but it's no nutritional value to it. We don't care that there's diseases that can be avoided if people were just to start eating healthy young and learned about health and nutrition and nutrients and their body young. So we call it a food dump, now that would be our terminology.
Sharrona Moore
A lot of America's history on agriculture was literally built on the backs of black people. So forming the Indiana Black Farmers Co-op was about providing mentors for people of color for providing a share, a space where we would be able to collectively and strategically grow similar and different crops for our markets, for our families to be able to feed, to feed our families. The white farmers were already doing that, but that's, its exclusive right? They aren't comfortable working with us a lot of times, and so we just felt like we needed to form our own network that was going to be hyper focused on our own community. We knew that the government would not come back and save us, that they are not planning to put any grocery stores back into our neighborhoods that in order for that to happen, our neighborhoods will have to be gentrified first. And so the best way to combat some of the issues that our community in particular was faced with it was with agriculture. And so that's why we formed the Co-op.
Joyce Randolph
We also have a what we call a beauty bodega.
Sibeko Jywanza
We created a small scale grocery store called Cleo's Bodega,
Joyce Randolph
which is based on eating healthy.
Sibeko Jywanza
And we also have a café inside that store. And so people are able to come and use Wi-Fi and and kind of sit and chill and get a smoothie and some coffee.
Joyce Randolph
What you put in makes you feel better, and when you feel better, then you are going to look better
Sibeko Jywanza
And also do some small scale shopping so you can shop for your week. It's really built for people within a neighborhood to just come and get a couple of things for dinner or for that week and to maintain themselves.
Joyce Randolph
We call it Beauty Bodega, but it's based on making you beautiful from the inside out.
Sharrona Moore
Like, you're a superhero, if you can grow food. People don't realize that, it's revolutionary.
Freida Graves
We get students out there for six weeks. We were in the winter time to learn about the eggs and the chickens and the vegetables and things like that. There's one young lady and she didn't come from our farm, but she started at Thea Bowman. She comes out now and she's in veterinary school, and she's the one whose giving our goats the vaccinations. But she was from Thea Bowman, and Thea Bowman was the first school that we worked with.
Sibeko Jywanza
One of our first participants in our Feed Program. I believe we grew some basil and bagged it up and was able to sell it. And the realization that he could make more money selling basil than actually packaging up weed and selling it kind of blew his mind. And it is a story that I always like to kind of start with because I don't think we understand that the hustler mentality that people have in terms of wanting to make money. And it's like, we don't want people to lose that because that's what America was built off of was that hustle mentality. What we want to do is switch the hustle in terms of what you're selling in the mentality of what's community. So that's one story that I always like try to keep in mind
Sharrona Moore
In 20 years I am hoping to end food apartheid, and within the next 20 years, I see each one of these children that come through our program, re-creating the vision over and over and over again. And so they can just go out in their backyard to get their eggs and their vegetables. And then, they might have to, Wal-Mart might have to be 30 minutes away.
Liz Brownlee
And there you have it, folks, this is the Hoosier Young Farmer podcast brought to you with support from Indiana Humanities, the Hoosier Young Farmers Coalition and the National Young Farmers Coalition. To learn more about how we're updating the narrative on food and farming here in Indiana go to Hoosier YFC dot O R G backslash Stories. Thanks to the farmers who lent their voices this episode. Daniel Garcia, Freida Graves, Sibeko Jywanza, Sharrona Moore and Joyce Randolph. Thanks to Andrew Raridon and Jessica Murnane for coordinating these interviews and Andrew Raridon again and Rachel Brandenburg for conducting the interviews.
Alex Chambers
Our theme music is from Amy O. and we have additional music from Ramón Monrás-Sender. Our host Liz Brownlee got this project off the ground and it was produced by me, Alex Chambers. Thanks for listening.
Episode 3: Women in Farming
Liz Brownlee
OK, Alex, I have a story for you.
Alex Chambers
Great. I really like stories, but can you introduce yourself first?
Liz Brownlee
Yes. Yes, I can. Sorry, I'm Liz Brownlee. I'm a farmer and the president of the Hoosier Young Farmers Coalition, and you are listening to the Hoosier Young Farmer podcast. So you ready for the story? And so a few weeks ago, I was selling at the farmer's market and a family I knew they stopped by to catch up. They had just moved home to Indiana, so their young kids actually didn't really know me. And midway through our conversation, the seven year old boy stopped us and he said, Are you a boy or a girl? And so this happens to me a fair bit. I have short hair and muscles, and I actually specifically picked out a pink shirt to wear that day thinking that it would be like a cue right to anyone who might be confused. And I know it's dumb to strategize and I shouldn't worry about it. But in small conservative towns, I feel like I have to. And so anyway, the boy's parents handled it like champs. I said, I'm a girl. And they said, Are you surprised because she has big muscles? She gets muscles from working so hard on her farm. And I thought that was a great response. You know, and I'm really glad that the boy was curious and that he felt comfortable asking. On the other hand, it made me wonder like, how is our society so clearly sexist that he's seven raised in a thoughtful family and he still thinks it's weird or at least remarkable that a woman can be a farmer and be strong?
Alex Chambers
Yeah, yeah, it's pretty wild. But that is an appropriate story, because that is what this episode is about.
Liz Brownlee
Wait, this episode about women with muscles breaking gender norms?
Alex Chambers
No, that would be fun. Kind of. It's it's about the kinds of assumptions people make about farmers and who get's to be one. Who has the necessary knowledge and skills, but we are specifically hearing from women. So, yeah, it's about gender. But I was telling my partner about it the other day, and she said, so it's about power. And I was like, oh, yes, it's all about power. So that's what I hope that you'll think about as you listen to these stories about the assumptions people are making about farmers and how power is working in the background of all that.
Liz Brownlee
I love that we're going to look at this big picture systemic issue, but also hear the voices of real women who are farming in Indiana and hear their specific stories.
Alex Chambers
Absolutely. One more thing before we get into it, the first voice you'll hear is Andrew Raridon. He's a sociology professor and was one of our two trusty interviewers. And he's talking with Farmer Megan Ayers.
Andrew Raridon
Farming is coded so masculine, especially this conventional kind of farming. So what have your experiences been like as a woman farmer and what what kinds of interactions have you had with your neighbors around that?
Megan Ayers
Well, so far , um, the well, I'm going to I'm going to try to be generous here, as
Andrew Raridon
You don't even have to be. That's not that's not the point of this at all. So believe me, like I've been asking that question for a lot of people for a long time, and I've heard a lot of wacky stuff. So yeah, you don't need to hold back on that.
Megan Ayers
Well, I mean, I I get that what I'm doing is really unfamiliar to them. And so they think they're being helpful by telling me to do what they know. And so I've been told to grow corn. I've been told to grow soybeans. I've been told that someone else can come and grow on my land for me. And I say, thank you and you know, and give them a little laugh and tell them that I have my own plans and that I appreciate them looking out for me. People also tell me that my chickens are all going to get murdered and don't I know that there's coyotes around here? I don't know. I mean, I'm not surprised by the pushback, not because that's what I expect, but just because the culture in this area is purely corn, soy and hay. And that's OK. That's totally fine. They can continue to do that because that's what they know and they're good at it and they're set up for that, you know, I mean, we're talking about generations of family farms in this area. And so, yeah, I do things a little differently and they think I'm a little crazy. I'm pretty sure that they think that I'm bound for failure. And that's kind of awesome because I want to prove them wrong
[MUSIC]
Megan Ayers
I'm not looking on my farm as a return on investment. What I'm looking to do is make the soil better and make this tiny little 11 acre environment that I live in healthier and better than when I started. So that's not going to be it's not going to look like what they do, and I'm not going to use the same tools. And and that's OK.
Mardean Roach
I've had some folks at farmers markets and they always really want to question my what we're doing on the farm. And when I give them reasoning of why we're doing grass-fed, you know, then they might have those other thoughts of conventional farming and conventional feed lots of beef, and, you know, they really question why I have the theories that I do for what we're raising and how we're raising it, so sometimes I run into those folks that really ask a lot of questions and it's I I feel like it might be from the side of me being a lady and and not a guy, because when John's in those same situations, he's not getting the pressure that I get whenever I get those questions.
Armonda Riggs
I went to a hemp training. I think I think it was Clay County. The rule was mostly of our current farmer population, so sixty five and older gentleman, but the gentleman who is sitting across from me actually at lunch, we were engaging in conversation and he said, You know, I just wouldn't think of you as a farmer. I was like, oh really well. I mean, I am, you know, I mean, I'm glad that you brought this topic up. But but I am a farmer and I'm certainly interested in hearing more about you and your farm and your farming operation. And we did strike up a conversation after that and it went really well. But it was definitely interesting to have that experience of engaging in conversation with another individual on that level.
Tracy Jaeger
I have to go into the supply stores and they they just look at me like, Where's your husband?
Armonda Riggs [voice modulated down]
Wouldn't think of you as a farmer.
Kristi Schulz
Some well-meaning and well-intentioned men, older men trying to, you know, be nice and chat. But I'll say, Oh, well, where's the farmer today?
Tracy Jaeger [voice modulated down]
Do you know what this is for?
Nicci Keaton
when I would call and try and find a piece of equipment or a try to find our breeding stock, and I would make these phone calls to other farmers.
Mary Winstead [voice modulated down]
Can I speak to your husband about this?
Nicci Keaton
They were always kind of surprised when it was a woman's voice on the end,
Kristi Schulz [voice modulated down]
Where's the farmer today?
Tracy Jaeger
And then I tell them what I want and they say, Do you know what this is for? I'm like, Yes, that's why I'm here to order it. You know, we all automatically assume that there's a man behind me somewhere going to write the check and undo it.
Kristi Schulz
I just look at them point blank and say, Well, you're looking at her
Tracy Jaeger
I'm just like, This is my venture, Kenny's name. He doesn't care to have it on here. It's fine if it is, but he's just like, You know, this is yours.
Mardean Roach [voice modulated down]
What were you doing up on that tractor?
Tracy Jaeger
Because I spent so long under his coattails, he doesn't want me there, and he'll even tell somebody says, Oh, you guys, you guys raised great tomatoes, he said. I don't raise great tomatoes. She raises great tomatoes,
Nicci Keaton
They were always kind of surprised. It was a woman's voice on the end. I Kind of like that. Actually, I kind of like being a surprise
[MUSIC]
Armonda Riggs
At the farmer's market when I'm out there vending and selling product, I look similar to how I do now, but I like to wear lipstick, I like to wear my hair even when I'm not farming. I enjoy that. And so for me, I feel like a lot of people, it's hard for them to piece that together with me being a farmer. And it's also sometimes hard to internalize that as well to internally acknowledge that I am a farmer, that I am validated in saying that I am a farmer because I feel like a lot of people think unless you have, you know, five hundred ten thousand acres of farming land that you know, are you really a farmer? kind of a thing. So for me, that has been, I guess, a personal struggle.
Joyce Randolph
I never thought any time in my life that I would be interested in farming. My husband always said, you know, we need a little garden out in the backyard and I'm like, Yeah, you're right, and we have a small garden in the backyard. And literally, that's where Elephant Gardens started is my daughter is like, you know, we have such a hard time finding organic stuff at the grocery store. What don't we just say, can I use a little bit of this backyard out here? I said, Sure, why not? And what started that year of like three or four rows the following year was like eight rows. And then in that same year is when we happened upon the property where Elephant Gardens is now located.
Mardean Roach
John was and our son actually go on a trip every year to southern Missouri, and the weekend that they were gone was a perfect weekend for doing hay. So I actually was out cutting hay with one of our old tractors, you know, heading hay with another tractor. And then I started bailing on the day that they headed home, but I stopped one day to introduce myself to a new neighbor. And he's like, I seen you. What were you doing up on that tractor? He's like, You were down there at that other house? I'm like, Yes, we that's where we cut hay is one of the other neighbors. And yes, I was cutting hay. He said, Well, what were you doing? Where's your husband at? [laughter]
Mardean Roach
So when I'm driving my tractors up and down the road, or if I'm cutting hay at another location, we're very fortunate. We have some great neighbors here in this area that allow us to cut hay just because it's locations that they don't have to mow if we cut their hay. But they I always do get some funny looks from folks driving by or doing double takes when they see that it's me and it's not John out there.
Ann Merritt
We look at each other for a lot of the answers. And my husband looks to me because I have way more agricultural background, way more like in the realms of animal husbandry and fruit husbandry, like I've just had way more experience. So he looks to me for all those answers and I'm just like, I don't know, well, I'll figure this out like this. Last week we had a deer get caught in our fence and it snapped its leg at the joint like completely off and I had to hold it. It's a like probably a hundred and twenty pound little buck, like a yearling buck and hold it while he cut it out of the fence. And then I tackled it on the ground so it would stop trying to ram its body into the fence to escape and then ended up having to shoot it. I have like the man's role in many things, but then I'm a mother. I have five children. Just all of the the household and domestic duties are all mine too. So it's just crazy, crazy, like a crazy lot. It keeps me up a lot at night.
Mary Winstead
I found that there were a lot of women that were involved, but there wasn't a good connection as far as growers. It was more like eating like the vegan and vegetarian movement. You know, we all have common interest in eating healthy, holistic living, taking care of our kids, that kind of thing. But as growers, we needed that resource to be able to depend on each other calling saying, I have this bug here, I'm sending you a picture. Are you getting these in your garden? Are you seeing anything like this and what are you doing and what is working? And we needed that kind of network too. We don't exclude men. But it's really been good to have another group of women that you can rely on that will talk to you about these things. And there's no like, well, honey, just don't worry your little pretty mind about that, you know, which is what some of us had experienced over the years. And hopefully we don't have to have any new women farmers that are coming into this to have that happening to them, you know, to have them ignored or say, Can I speak to your husband about this? You know, because I've had those things happen to me, but I'm hoping that it's that error and that time is disappearing to where people see the face of a farmer, not as just a man, that they realize that women are farmers, too, and they're some of the highest quality farmers that I have met.
Tracy Jaeger
I will tell you there is not enough women farmers because I think we would make awesome. Farmers compared to a lot of the men I've met. No offense.
Megan Ayers
It's not about trying to grow this many bushels and looking at the market and how much that market will bear for, you know, x amount of input in this fertilizer. You know, it's about feeding people and connecting with others through this thing that we've always done, we've always farmed and farming has led to civilization. So why not take this opportunity to use it as a tool to connect with other people, as well as to teach other people that there is another way to feed our families and to feed each other?
Liz Brownlee
And there you have it, folks. This is the Hoosier Young Farmer podcast brought to you with support from Indiana Humanities, the Hoosier Young Farmers Coalition and National Young Farmers Coalition. To learn more about how we're updating the narrative on food and farming in Indiana go to Hoosier YFC dot O R G backslash stories. Thanks to the farmers who lent their voices to this episode, that was Megan Ayers, Tracy Jaeger, Nikki Keaton, Ann Merritt. Joyce Randolph, Armonda, Riggs, Mardean Roach, Kristi Schulz and Mary Winstead. Thanks to Andrew Raridon and Jessica Murnane for coordinating these interviews. And Andrew Raridon again, as well as Rachael Brandenburg for conducting interviews.
Alex Chambers
Our theme music is from Amy O., and we have additional music from Backward Collective. Our host, Liz Brownlee, got this project off the ground and it was produced by me, Alex Chambers. Thanks for listening.
OK, Alex, I have a story for you.
Alex Chambers
Great. I really like stories, but can you introduce yourself first?
Liz Brownlee
Yes. Yes, I can. Sorry, I'm Liz Brownlee. I'm a farmer and the president of the Hoosier Young Farmers Coalition, and you are listening to the Hoosier Young Farmer podcast. So you ready for the story? And so a few weeks ago, I was selling at the farmer's market and a family I knew they stopped by to catch up. They had just moved home to Indiana, so their young kids actually didn't really know me. And midway through our conversation, the seven year old boy stopped us and he said, Are you a boy or a girl? And so this happens to me a fair bit. I have short hair and muscles, and I actually specifically picked out a pink shirt to wear that day thinking that it would be like a cue right to anyone who might be confused. And I know it's dumb to strategize and I shouldn't worry about it. But in small conservative towns, I feel like I have to. And so anyway, the boy's parents handled it like champs. I said, I'm a girl. And they said, Are you surprised because she has big muscles? She gets muscles from working so hard on her farm. And I thought that was a great response. You know, and I'm really glad that the boy was curious and that he felt comfortable asking. On the other hand, it made me wonder like, how is our society so clearly sexist that he's seven raised in a thoughtful family and he still thinks it's weird or at least remarkable that a woman can be a farmer and be strong?
Alex Chambers
Yeah, yeah, it's pretty wild. But that is an appropriate story, because that is what this episode is about.
Liz Brownlee
Wait, this episode about women with muscles breaking gender norms?
Alex Chambers
No, that would be fun. Kind of. It's it's about the kinds of assumptions people make about farmers and who get's to be one. Who has the necessary knowledge and skills, but we are specifically hearing from women. So, yeah, it's about gender. But I was telling my partner about it the other day, and she said, so it's about power. And I was like, oh, yes, it's all about power. So that's what I hope that you'll think about as you listen to these stories about the assumptions people are making about farmers and how power is working in the background of all that.
Liz Brownlee
I love that we're going to look at this big picture systemic issue, but also hear the voices of real women who are farming in Indiana and hear their specific stories.
Alex Chambers
Absolutely. One more thing before we get into it, the first voice you'll hear is Andrew Raridon. He's a sociology professor and was one of our two trusty interviewers. And he's talking with Farmer Megan Ayers.
Andrew Raridon
Farming is coded so masculine, especially this conventional kind of farming. So what have your experiences been like as a woman farmer and what what kinds of interactions have you had with your neighbors around that?
Megan Ayers
Well, so far , um, the well, I'm going to I'm going to try to be generous here, as
Andrew Raridon
You don't even have to be. That's not that's not the point of this at all. So believe me, like I've been asking that question for a lot of people for a long time, and I've heard a lot of wacky stuff. So yeah, you don't need to hold back on that.
Megan Ayers
Well, I mean, I I get that what I'm doing is really unfamiliar to them. And so they think they're being helpful by telling me to do what they know. And so I've been told to grow corn. I've been told to grow soybeans. I've been told that someone else can come and grow on my land for me. And I say, thank you and you know, and give them a little laugh and tell them that I have my own plans and that I appreciate them looking out for me. People also tell me that my chickens are all going to get murdered and don't I know that there's coyotes around here? I don't know. I mean, I'm not surprised by the pushback, not because that's what I expect, but just because the culture in this area is purely corn, soy and hay. And that's OK. That's totally fine. They can continue to do that because that's what they know and they're good at it and they're set up for that, you know, I mean, we're talking about generations of family farms in this area. And so, yeah, I do things a little differently and they think I'm a little crazy. I'm pretty sure that they think that I'm bound for failure. And that's kind of awesome because I want to prove them wrong
[MUSIC]
Megan Ayers
I'm not looking on my farm as a return on investment. What I'm looking to do is make the soil better and make this tiny little 11 acre environment that I live in healthier and better than when I started. So that's not going to be it's not going to look like what they do, and I'm not going to use the same tools. And and that's OK.
Mardean Roach
I've had some folks at farmers markets and they always really want to question my what we're doing on the farm. And when I give them reasoning of why we're doing grass-fed, you know, then they might have those other thoughts of conventional farming and conventional feed lots of beef, and, you know, they really question why I have the theories that I do for what we're raising and how we're raising it, so sometimes I run into those folks that really ask a lot of questions and it's I I feel like it might be from the side of me being a lady and and not a guy, because when John's in those same situations, he's not getting the pressure that I get whenever I get those questions.
Armonda Riggs
I went to a hemp training. I think I think it was Clay County. The rule was mostly of our current farmer population, so sixty five and older gentleman, but the gentleman who is sitting across from me actually at lunch, we were engaging in conversation and he said, You know, I just wouldn't think of you as a farmer. I was like, oh really well. I mean, I am, you know, I mean, I'm glad that you brought this topic up. But but I am a farmer and I'm certainly interested in hearing more about you and your farm and your farming operation. And we did strike up a conversation after that and it went really well. But it was definitely interesting to have that experience of engaging in conversation with another individual on that level.
Tracy Jaeger
I have to go into the supply stores and they they just look at me like, Where's your husband?
Armonda Riggs [voice modulated down]
Wouldn't think of you as a farmer.
Kristi Schulz
Some well-meaning and well-intentioned men, older men trying to, you know, be nice and chat. But I'll say, Oh, well, where's the farmer today?
Tracy Jaeger [voice modulated down]
Do you know what this is for?
Nicci Keaton
when I would call and try and find a piece of equipment or a try to find our breeding stock, and I would make these phone calls to other farmers.
Mary Winstead [voice modulated down]
Can I speak to your husband about this?
Nicci Keaton
They were always kind of surprised when it was a woman's voice on the end,
Kristi Schulz [voice modulated down]
Where's the farmer today?
Tracy Jaeger
And then I tell them what I want and they say, Do you know what this is for? I'm like, Yes, that's why I'm here to order it. You know, we all automatically assume that there's a man behind me somewhere going to write the check and undo it.
Kristi Schulz
I just look at them point blank and say, Well, you're looking at her
Tracy Jaeger
I'm just like, This is my venture, Kenny's name. He doesn't care to have it on here. It's fine if it is, but he's just like, You know, this is yours.
Mardean Roach [voice modulated down]
What were you doing up on that tractor?
Tracy Jaeger
Because I spent so long under his coattails, he doesn't want me there, and he'll even tell somebody says, Oh, you guys, you guys raised great tomatoes, he said. I don't raise great tomatoes. She raises great tomatoes,
Nicci Keaton
They were always kind of surprised. It was a woman's voice on the end. I Kind of like that. Actually, I kind of like being a surprise
[MUSIC]
Armonda Riggs
At the farmer's market when I'm out there vending and selling product, I look similar to how I do now, but I like to wear lipstick, I like to wear my hair even when I'm not farming. I enjoy that. And so for me, I feel like a lot of people, it's hard for them to piece that together with me being a farmer. And it's also sometimes hard to internalize that as well to internally acknowledge that I am a farmer, that I am validated in saying that I am a farmer because I feel like a lot of people think unless you have, you know, five hundred ten thousand acres of farming land that you know, are you really a farmer? kind of a thing. So for me, that has been, I guess, a personal struggle.
Joyce Randolph
I never thought any time in my life that I would be interested in farming. My husband always said, you know, we need a little garden out in the backyard and I'm like, Yeah, you're right, and we have a small garden in the backyard. And literally, that's where Elephant Gardens started is my daughter is like, you know, we have such a hard time finding organic stuff at the grocery store. What don't we just say, can I use a little bit of this backyard out here? I said, Sure, why not? And what started that year of like three or four rows the following year was like eight rows. And then in that same year is when we happened upon the property where Elephant Gardens is now located.
Mardean Roach
John was and our son actually go on a trip every year to southern Missouri, and the weekend that they were gone was a perfect weekend for doing hay. So I actually was out cutting hay with one of our old tractors, you know, heading hay with another tractor. And then I started bailing on the day that they headed home, but I stopped one day to introduce myself to a new neighbor. And he's like, I seen you. What were you doing up on that tractor? He's like, You were down there at that other house? I'm like, Yes, we that's where we cut hay is one of the other neighbors. And yes, I was cutting hay. He said, Well, what were you doing? Where's your husband at? [laughter]
Mardean Roach
So when I'm driving my tractors up and down the road, or if I'm cutting hay at another location, we're very fortunate. We have some great neighbors here in this area that allow us to cut hay just because it's locations that they don't have to mow if we cut their hay. But they I always do get some funny looks from folks driving by or doing double takes when they see that it's me and it's not John out there.
Ann Merritt
We look at each other for a lot of the answers. And my husband looks to me because I have way more agricultural background, way more like in the realms of animal husbandry and fruit husbandry, like I've just had way more experience. So he looks to me for all those answers and I'm just like, I don't know, well, I'll figure this out like this. Last week we had a deer get caught in our fence and it snapped its leg at the joint like completely off and I had to hold it. It's a like probably a hundred and twenty pound little buck, like a yearling buck and hold it while he cut it out of the fence. And then I tackled it on the ground so it would stop trying to ram its body into the fence to escape and then ended up having to shoot it. I have like the man's role in many things, but then I'm a mother. I have five children. Just all of the the household and domestic duties are all mine too. So it's just crazy, crazy, like a crazy lot. It keeps me up a lot at night.
Mary Winstead
I found that there were a lot of women that were involved, but there wasn't a good connection as far as growers. It was more like eating like the vegan and vegetarian movement. You know, we all have common interest in eating healthy, holistic living, taking care of our kids, that kind of thing. But as growers, we needed that resource to be able to depend on each other calling saying, I have this bug here, I'm sending you a picture. Are you getting these in your garden? Are you seeing anything like this and what are you doing and what is working? And we needed that kind of network too. We don't exclude men. But it's really been good to have another group of women that you can rely on that will talk to you about these things. And there's no like, well, honey, just don't worry your little pretty mind about that, you know, which is what some of us had experienced over the years. And hopefully we don't have to have any new women farmers that are coming into this to have that happening to them, you know, to have them ignored or say, Can I speak to your husband about this? You know, because I've had those things happen to me, but I'm hoping that it's that error and that time is disappearing to where people see the face of a farmer, not as just a man, that they realize that women are farmers, too, and they're some of the highest quality farmers that I have met.
Tracy Jaeger
I will tell you there is not enough women farmers because I think we would make awesome. Farmers compared to a lot of the men I've met. No offense.
Megan Ayers
It's not about trying to grow this many bushels and looking at the market and how much that market will bear for, you know, x amount of input in this fertilizer. You know, it's about feeding people and connecting with others through this thing that we've always done, we've always farmed and farming has led to civilization. So why not take this opportunity to use it as a tool to connect with other people, as well as to teach other people that there is another way to feed our families and to feed each other?
Liz Brownlee
And there you have it, folks. This is the Hoosier Young Farmer podcast brought to you with support from Indiana Humanities, the Hoosier Young Farmers Coalition and National Young Farmers Coalition. To learn more about how we're updating the narrative on food and farming in Indiana go to Hoosier YFC dot O R G backslash stories. Thanks to the farmers who lent their voices to this episode, that was Megan Ayers, Tracy Jaeger, Nikki Keaton, Ann Merritt. Joyce Randolph, Armonda, Riggs, Mardean Roach, Kristi Schulz and Mary Winstead. Thanks to Andrew Raridon and Jessica Murnane for coordinating these interviews. And Andrew Raridon again, as well as Rachael Brandenburg for conducting interviews.
Alex Chambers
Our theme music is from Amy O., and we have additional music from Backward Collective. Our host, Liz Brownlee, got this project off the ground and it was produced by me, Alex Chambers. Thanks for listening.
Episode 4: Organic and Unconventional
Liz Brownlee
Hey, everyone. I'm Liz Brownlee, a farmer and president of the Hoosier Young Farmers Coalition, and you're listening to the Hoosier Young Farmers podcast. This episode is a little different. We're going to hear from farmers. They're going to talk about what it's like to work to farm sustainably in a state where conventional AG is very much the norm. And so first, we'll hear from Adam Trost and then focus really on Tracy Jaeger's story. So first, the Trost's. So the reason that Claire and Adam decided to try to do pasture raised meat was that Claire thought it tasted better. But then Adam realized that he could do a ton for soil conservation by farming in a more sustainable way, and he got even more excited. So they realized it wasn't even just about their own 30 acres
Adam Trost
Global warming. It's just such a hot topic, and you have this small group of people who are saying, listen, if we do this, we can capture carbon and put it back into the soil. And not only do we slow down emissions, we can actually reverse them if we do it right. And so it's really my own little small experiment to see what we can do on 30 acres over the course of time. You know, how much more organic matter can we put in the soil? And does this really work? And if we scale this up, what can we do?
Liz Brownlee
Claire and Adam started farming in 2016, and they got two pretty different responses from their neighbors. The older farmers especially saw the value in more sustainable practices.
Adam Trost
Conventional farmers who are my age, they're like, oh, that's cute. That's your kind of farming. It's kind of a hobby farm. When I talk to older farmers who are also conventional, you know, they may be farming thousands of acres. They think it's awesome. They're like, I remember when I did that, I remember how much fun it was when we were raising animals. My grandfather is a farmer in Illinois. And the things we're doing now are the same things he did when he was a kid with his dad. They just didn't have the direct to consumer aspect of it, so they got pushed out by the big guys. They had to specialize and they had to grow corn and soybeans. But those older generation guys they're like that's..., they think it's spectacular. They think it's great that animals are back on farms that if animals aren't raised in 4000 animal unit buildings so it really is a divide of generations.
Liz Brownlee
All right, now, let's hear from someone who's been farming sustainably in Indiana for a long time. Tracy Jaeger started farming almost 40 years ago, but growing food without a lot of chemicals isn't just nostalgic for her. It's about safety. So for the rest of the episode, we're going to focus on Tracy's story. And as you listen, I think you'll see how getting away from industrial farming methods isn't just about realizing it's the right thing to do. When you've been investing in one way of doing it for decades that switch can really be risky, but we'll get to that. Let's hear from Tracy. She didn't plan on being a farmer, but when your high school sweetheart who you married just as soon as you graduate says, Let's try dairying, you might just say, why not?
Tracy Jaeger
You know, 20 years old, I was up and carrying kids to the barn and never realized it would turn into about 20 years of dairying and then ended up buying a farm. By the time we were, about forty five came out here to Liberty, Indiana, where we're at now. My first instinct was we quit dairying and I was ready for something different. And I went searching for organic information.
Liz Brownlee
She already had a history with organic growing.
Tracy Jaeger
My dad had an organic garden in the backyard. We grew up in a subdivision, a quarter acre lot, and he fed the whole Cul-De-Sac out of the backyard. So I kinda think I got that from him a little bit. He would make bug tea. He called it bug tea. And he would mash them all up and put them in a bucket and strained it through cheesecloth. And then he put it in a pump sprayer and he'd spray it. And I just remember thinking that was just, you know, so bad. But I don't think that anymore. So I knew when I tell somebody that they're like, Oh, that's nasty. And I said, Well, but if he keeps the bug from coming back, you know, if you had squished bodies laying around, you probably wouldn't come around, either.
Liz Brownlee
But bug tea isn't really enough to go on, and you're trying to switch your whole operation away from chemicals. So Tracy started looking for information.
Tracy Jaeger
I went everywhere. No one knew anything. All I knew is my dad had the Rodale's encyclopedia. And and that's what he read every night besides a Bible. And I was just like, well, I have to go there because that's all I know.
Liz Brownlee
They were in Union County, lots of big farms and not exactly a hotbed of experimentation.
Tracy Jaeger
There was just no support. There was no no support for someone trying to start something different around here. We are in a very conventional area, lots of large farmers. Union County, Indiana, is a smaller county in the state, but they have a lot of nice big flat farms around here. So looking for help trying to start something different never came. Of course, we have to make the farm payment. And it's like we could never get ahead enough to move forward to where you really want to be. I mean, we have never paid ourselves from this farm. I work off the farm. So when I come home at night in the summertime, I am directly out in the field. I'm out there till 10 o'clock at night if it's daylight and I'm out till it's dark. In early spring, I put out cabbage and cold-weather plants I put out, you know, broccoli, cauliflower, which cauliflower seems to really grow good here. If I can get it started early since my goal was to try to do it without any assistance of chemicals or anything. So I kind of daily go out, pick and watch, and if I see something I don't like, I smash it and leave it there, kind of on the edge of the leaf. So another bug smells that maybe they won't come along and eat on that one or something. So. You know, I don't have anything against conventional anything because I've been eating that way. When you go to the grocery, you know, unless you buy the organic, you don't know exactly what was on that food. So with my husband, I'm kind of the same way with him. But you know, when he's growing corn and beans competitively to make a farm payment, you've got to have the money for the farm payment. So you got to have some grain. So to to jump in full force would just be probably cutting our own neck, you know, our own throats.
Tracy Jaeger
So over the years of perseverance, we still are not certified organic in any means, but we grow stuff organically. We can be certified organically, we've been a cover on our ground where I plant the produce we're trying to eliminate as much as possible. It's not that I have anything against not being organic because I mean, my husband still farms traditionally on a lot of levels, but he has non-GMO corn or non-GMO beans. But slowly through the process, this is exactly what it is. It's a process that you go from, you know?
Tracy Jaeger
He doesn't want to put that spray on the ground. Sorry. There's not a farmer out there that doesn't open that jar, and pour it into that sprayer and say, I don't want to do that. You know, that's how I feel. So anyway, he's very open to that for me. So that's why I'm always grateful. So he gave me these 25 acres wrapped around my house and a lovely house it is, he built for me. And he said, What do you want to do with it? So I said, Well, first thing I want to do is cover it, just put it in the cover. I said something you can use. So he planted alfalfa in it. And then he planted oats in it. So we started harvesting oats, which we harvet grain. I mean, he's good with wheat. Wheat is good for him around this ground grows great wheat. But we decided to try oats. His grandfather raised them years ago, so we started using them with the cows. So in the last five years, we've really started transferring about 25 acres into permanent cover. I've been putting my vegetables into that, we go into it, I'll till up my rows where I want to put in my vegetables and then put it back into oats or alfalfa over the winter and then alfalfa in the spring. And so we're kind of rotating in and out, but I'm not using that much of the 25 acres. So I've got a lot of it that's kind of just he's taken the hay off of. He was pushing 300 bushel corn out of this field and he gave it to me. So I know it wasn't the easiest corn to give up. So, you know, it wasn't the easiest ground, but it was the most sensible because it surrounds my house. So I think I deserved it. After 20 years of milking cows, so that's what I tell him all the time.
Tracy Jaeger
In the farming industry, so I kind of know chemicals are out there and where they're used at. And when you start reading how to grow a lot of those vegetables and what chemicals they want you to put on them, if you want them to be greener, if you want them to be, you know, long. I just got to thinking to myself, you know, I now have grandkids coming and I don't want them to eat that either. You know, over the course of the years, we've always avoided putting anything on our food because I just I don't want it. I never did want it. So now I'm growing for my grandkids. I don't want them to be susceptible to it. I want to put the food up for them. I want it. I freeze it. I can it. I deliver it to them. When they're here, I make them take stuff home, and I wish I could do every single thing that way.
Liz Brownlee
But it's hard to transition, especially when you've invested so much in conventional farming. What would it take for Tracy and her husband to take all their acreage to organic
Tracy Jaeger
A safety net during that transition. You know, not just money. I'm going to say that that's the main thing, because if you transition and you have a failure and you've got a, you know, you've got a million dollar farm, you're trying to pay for, our farm is not quite paid off when it gets paid off, whoo hoo, look out. I'll be a lot more tempted to go the extra mile because I won't have that fear of losing my farm. But I think that for men, especially, you know, for years, they've been in the role of securing that. You know, we rent cash, rent quite a bit acreage that he farms and then we own where we're at about 116 acres. So I told him, we start with ours and then we can go from there. I have so many people who stop, who stop here and they buy stuff, and I kind of tell them when they're going, I said, I won't use anything. If you want to go back and see, I'll take you back. This comes from right here? I'm like, Yes, it comes from right here. Or if I run out, I'll say, You wait right here, I'll go pick one or you want to go with me. You know, the fact that I can say it's right here, it's right in front of you, and they're like, Oh, you're kidding me? And then they come back and say, Oh my gosh, it's the best tomatoes I ever had. I get a lot of compliments on those tomatoes because I just kind of baby them, and I read the handbooks on that Rondale's encyclopedia on exactly what the tomatoes need because I am not, you know, I am not college educated. I am not going to say I'm not educated by any means, but I just I don't have a degree by the back of your name, but I got life degree with farming. The neighbors go by and wonder what we're doing because we drive in 400 tomato steaks by hand. You know, they go up and down the road, real slow sometimes. And it's just like, I need to put a big sign up there and say, Yes, we are different, but it's still OK. I also have family who are very who say sometimes, well, why don't you just go all organic because they love it, they love organic produce. We grew up with it and they're like and now my siblings and stuff are like, Well, why don't you do that? I'm like, It's not that simple for me. You can't just say I'm organic and drop the ball on a thousand acres. That's just not feasible at this point. With this time, I don't know how much money it would take to buy all the equipment, modify what we have and change it over. I would be more than happy to do it if it was, like I said, financially feasible at this point in time. It's just not for us, for him mainly, I said, not for him. And he does that. That's his part. I worry because I know he's opening the jug. I know that his exposure is way more than what's on the food. So, you know, if they complain and we worry about what's going into the food and what's in the runoff and what's, you know, I can understand all of that. But when you have a man that's there opening that jug, he puts his gloves on. He puts his little cape on and, you know, they mix that chemical and then they have it there. It's scary for me because you don't know what the future holds with that. But if we could walk away from it with those chemicals, I would love to do it. I do have to say that he thinks a lot more about how he sprays and what he sprays. And I think that he thinks a lot more about not using it than he ever thought before. You know, the last five years, it's opened his eyes when we put the alfalfa in the front field here in front of my house. We were like digging up squares about foot deep square and we were counting the worms. You know how many worms are in this ground, how many worms are in this ground? And we would count about 10 or 12 worms. And then we put this alfalfa in. And then the next year we took a shovel and did the same thing kinda in the same area and there was like 80. So you tell me in one year if the worms are in the alfalfa and the roots and you know, and. I just know that you can heal the soil. By doing something different, so, you know, if we can heal the soil back to where it was before the use of chemicals was the standard because that became a standard after the War of World War Two, I think so. The farmers that did that years and years ago can remember how they could go out in the soil and, you know, feel the soil and know the difference. And now it's like some of these fields to me, just look like they're they're dead because they have so much chemical and the time that it stays there, residual effects. So I know if you're putting any thing on there, that's killing the the life of the soil. To me, you're just pushing a seed with what you're putting in the ground. The soil is not supporting the seed. So that is where I want to go. I want to have the soil healthy so that what we plant grows from the soil, not from what you're giving it.
Liz Brownlee
That's what we need if we want our food system to be sustainable. But for farmers to make that switch, they need support. Right now, we subsidize industrial ag in these ways. What if the government put some of that money towards farmers like Tracy and her husband, Kenny, so they could transition away from the chemicals and not have to risk their livelihoods? If you think that's a good idea, give your local legislators a call or join the National Young Farmers Coalition and help create policies and funding that equip farmers like the Jaeger's for success. Tracy Jaeger and her husband, Kenny own Jaeger, Family Farm and Bebop and produce in Union County, Indiana. We also heard from Adam Trost of Bent Arrow Acres in Russiaville. This is the Hoosier Young Farmers podcast brought to you with support from Indiana Huamanities, the Hoosier Young Farmers Coalition and the National Young Farmers Coalition. If you want to learn more about how we're updating the narrative on food and farming in Indiana, go to Hoosier Y F C dot O R G backslash stories. Thanks to Andrew Raridon and Jessica Murnane for coordinating these interviews and Andrew Raridon and Rachel Brandenburg for conducting interviews.
Alex Chambers
Our theme music is from Amy O., and we have additional music from Ramón Monrás-Sender and Airport People. Our host, Liz Brownlee, helped this project off the ground and it was produced by me, Alex Chambers. Thanks for listening.
Hey, everyone. I'm Liz Brownlee, a farmer and president of the Hoosier Young Farmers Coalition, and you're listening to the Hoosier Young Farmers podcast. This episode is a little different. We're going to hear from farmers. They're going to talk about what it's like to work to farm sustainably in a state where conventional AG is very much the norm. And so first, we'll hear from Adam Trost and then focus really on Tracy Jaeger's story. So first, the Trost's. So the reason that Claire and Adam decided to try to do pasture raised meat was that Claire thought it tasted better. But then Adam realized that he could do a ton for soil conservation by farming in a more sustainable way, and he got even more excited. So they realized it wasn't even just about their own 30 acres
Adam Trost
Global warming. It's just such a hot topic, and you have this small group of people who are saying, listen, if we do this, we can capture carbon and put it back into the soil. And not only do we slow down emissions, we can actually reverse them if we do it right. And so it's really my own little small experiment to see what we can do on 30 acres over the course of time. You know, how much more organic matter can we put in the soil? And does this really work? And if we scale this up, what can we do?
Liz Brownlee
Claire and Adam started farming in 2016, and they got two pretty different responses from their neighbors. The older farmers especially saw the value in more sustainable practices.
Adam Trost
Conventional farmers who are my age, they're like, oh, that's cute. That's your kind of farming. It's kind of a hobby farm. When I talk to older farmers who are also conventional, you know, they may be farming thousands of acres. They think it's awesome. They're like, I remember when I did that, I remember how much fun it was when we were raising animals. My grandfather is a farmer in Illinois. And the things we're doing now are the same things he did when he was a kid with his dad. They just didn't have the direct to consumer aspect of it, so they got pushed out by the big guys. They had to specialize and they had to grow corn and soybeans. But those older generation guys they're like that's..., they think it's spectacular. They think it's great that animals are back on farms that if animals aren't raised in 4000 animal unit buildings so it really is a divide of generations.
Liz Brownlee
All right, now, let's hear from someone who's been farming sustainably in Indiana for a long time. Tracy Jaeger started farming almost 40 years ago, but growing food without a lot of chemicals isn't just nostalgic for her. It's about safety. So for the rest of the episode, we're going to focus on Tracy's story. And as you listen, I think you'll see how getting away from industrial farming methods isn't just about realizing it's the right thing to do. When you've been investing in one way of doing it for decades that switch can really be risky, but we'll get to that. Let's hear from Tracy. She didn't plan on being a farmer, but when your high school sweetheart who you married just as soon as you graduate says, Let's try dairying, you might just say, why not?
Tracy Jaeger
You know, 20 years old, I was up and carrying kids to the barn and never realized it would turn into about 20 years of dairying and then ended up buying a farm. By the time we were, about forty five came out here to Liberty, Indiana, where we're at now. My first instinct was we quit dairying and I was ready for something different. And I went searching for organic information.
Liz Brownlee
She already had a history with organic growing.
Tracy Jaeger
My dad had an organic garden in the backyard. We grew up in a subdivision, a quarter acre lot, and he fed the whole Cul-De-Sac out of the backyard. So I kinda think I got that from him a little bit. He would make bug tea. He called it bug tea. And he would mash them all up and put them in a bucket and strained it through cheesecloth. And then he put it in a pump sprayer and he'd spray it. And I just remember thinking that was just, you know, so bad. But I don't think that anymore. So I knew when I tell somebody that they're like, Oh, that's nasty. And I said, Well, but if he keeps the bug from coming back, you know, if you had squished bodies laying around, you probably wouldn't come around, either.
Liz Brownlee
But bug tea isn't really enough to go on, and you're trying to switch your whole operation away from chemicals. So Tracy started looking for information.
Tracy Jaeger
I went everywhere. No one knew anything. All I knew is my dad had the Rodale's encyclopedia. And and that's what he read every night besides a Bible. And I was just like, well, I have to go there because that's all I know.
Liz Brownlee
They were in Union County, lots of big farms and not exactly a hotbed of experimentation.
Tracy Jaeger
There was just no support. There was no no support for someone trying to start something different around here. We are in a very conventional area, lots of large farmers. Union County, Indiana, is a smaller county in the state, but they have a lot of nice big flat farms around here. So looking for help trying to start something different never came. Of course, we have to make the farm payment. And it's like we could never get ahead enough to move forward to where you really want to be. I mean, we have never paid ourselves from this farm. I work off the farm. So when I come home at night in the summertime, I am directly out in the field. I'm out there till 10 o'clock at night if it's daylight and I'm out till it's dark. In early spring, I put out cabbage and cold-weather plants I put out, you know, broccoli, cauliflower, which cauliflower seems to really grow good here. If I can get it started early since my goal was to try to do it without any assistance of chemicals or anything. So I kind of daily go out, pick and watch, and if I see something I don't like, I smash it and leave it there, kind of on the edge of the leaf. So another bug smells that maybe they won't come along and eat on that one or something. So. You know, I don't have anything against conventional anything because I've been eating that way. When you go to the grocery, you know, unless you buy the organic, you don't know exactly what was on that food. So with my husband, I'm kind of the same way with him. But you know, when he's growing corn and beans competitively to make a farm payment, you've got to have the money for the farm payment. So you got to have some grain. So to to jump in full force would just be probably cutting our own neck, you know, our own throats.
Tracy Jaeger
So over the years of perseverance, we still are not certified organic in any means, but we grow stuff organically. We can be certified organically, we've been a cover on our ground where I plant the produce we're trying to eliminate as much as possible. It's not that I have anything against not being organic because I mean, my husband still farms traditionally on a lot of levels, but he has non-GMO corn or non-GMO beans. But slowly through the process, this is exactly what it is. It's a process that you go from, you know?
Tracy Jaeger
He doesn't want to put that spray on the ground. Sorry. There's not a farmer out there that doesn't open that jar, and pour it into that sprayer and say, I don't want to do that. You know, that's how I feel. So anyway, he's very open to that for me. So that's why I'm always grateful. So he gave me these 25 acres wrapped around my house and a lovely house it is, he built for me. And he said, What do you want to do with it? So I said, Well, first thing I want to do is cover it, just put it in the cover. I said something you can use. So he planted alfalfa in it. And then he planted oats in it. So we started harvesting oats, which we harvet grain. I mean, he's good with wheat. Wheat is good for him around this ground grows great wheat. But we decided to try oats. His grandfather raised them years ago, so we started using them with the cows. So in the last five years, we've really started transferring about 25 acres into permanent cover. I've been putting my vegetables into that, we go into it, I'll till up my rows where I want to put in my vegetables and then put it back into oats or alfalfa over the winter and then alfalfa in the spring. And so we're kind of rotating in and out, but I'm not using that much of the 25 acres. So I've got a lot of it that's kind of just he's taken the hay off of. He was pushing 300 bushel corn out of this field and he gave it to me. So I know it wasn't the easiest corn to give up. So, you know, it wasn't the easiest ground, but it was the most sensible because it surrounds my house. So I think I deserved it. After 20 years of milking cows, so that's what I tell him all the time.
Tracy Jaeger
In the farming industry, so I kind of know chemicals are out there and where they're used at. And when you start reading how to grow a lot of those vegetables and what chemicals they want you to put on them, if you want them to be greener, if you want them to be, you know, long. I just got to thinking to myself, you know, I now have grandkids coming and I don't want them to eat that either. You know, over the course of the years, we've always avoided putting anything on our food because I just I don't want it. I never did want it. So now I'm growing for my grandkids. I don't want them to be susceptible to it. I want to put the food up for them. I want it. I freeze it. I can it. I deliver it to them. When they're here, I make them take stuff home, and I wish I could do every single thing that way.
Liz Brownlee
But it's hard to transition, especially when you've invested so much in conventional farming. What would it take for Tracy and her husband to take all their acreage to organic
Tracy Jaeger
A safety net during that transition. You know, not just money. I'm going to say that that's the main thing, because if you transition and you have a failure and you've got a, you know, you've got a million dollar farm, you're trying to pay for, our farm is not quite paid off when it gets paid off, whoo hoo, look out. I'll be a lot more tempted to go the extra mile because I won't have that fear of losing my farm. But I think that for men, especially, you know, for years, they've been in the role of securing that. You know, we rent cash, rent quite a bit acreage that he farms and then we own where we're at about 116 acres. So I told him, we start with ours and then we can go from there. I have so many people who stop, who stop here and they buy stuff, and I kind of tell them when they're going, I said, I won't use anything. If you want to go back and see, I'll take you back. This comes from right here? I'm like, Yes, it comes from right here. Or if I run out, I'll say, You wait right here, I'll go pick one or you want to go with me. You know, the fact that I can say it's right here, it's right in front of you, and they're like, Oh, you're kidding me? And then they come back and say, Oh my gosh, it's the best tomatoes I ever had. I get a lot of compliments on those tomatoes because I just kind of baby them, and I read the handbooks on that Rondale's encyclopedia on exactly what the tomatoes need because I am not, you know, I am not college educated. I am not going to say I'm not educated by any means, but I just I don't have a degree by the back of your name, but I got life degree with farming. The neighbors go by and wonder what we're doing because we drive in 400 tomato steaks by hand. You know, they go up and down the road, real slow sometimes. And it's just like, I need to put a big sign up there and say, Yes, we are different, but it's still OK. I also have family who are very who say sometimes, well, why don't you just go all organic because they love it, they love organic produce. We grew up with it and they're like and now my siblings and stuff are like, Well, why don't you do that? I'm like, It's not that simple for me. You can't just say I'm organic and drop the ball on a thousand acres. That's just not feasible at this point. With this time, I don't know how much money it would take to buy all the equipment, modify what we have and change it over. I would be more than happy to do it if it was, like I said, financially feasible at this point in time. It's just not for us, for him mainly, I said, not for him. And he does that. That's his part. I worry because I know he's opening the jug. I know that his exposure is way more than what's on the food. So, you know, if they complain and we worry about what's going into the food and what's in the runoff and what's, you know, I can understand all of that. But when you have a man that's there opening that jug, he puts his gloves on. He puts his little cape on and, you know, they mix that chemical and then they have it there. It's scary for me because you don't know what the future holds with that. But if we could walk away from it with those chemicals, I would love to do it. I do have to say that he thinks a lot more about how he sprays and what he sprays. And I think that he thinks a lot more about not using it than he ever thought before. You know, the last five years, it's opened his eyes when we put the alfalfa in the front field here in front of my house. We were like digging up squares about foot deep square and we were counting the worms. You know how many worms are in this ground, how many worms are in this ground? And we would count about 10 or 12 worms. And then we put this alfalfa in. And then the next year we took a shovel and did the same thing kinda in the same area and there was like 80. So you tell me in one year if the worms are in the alfalfa and the roots and you know, and. I just know that you can heal the soil. By doing something different, so, you know, if we can heal the soil back to where it was before the use of chemicals was the standard because that became a standard after the War of World War Two, I think so. The farmers that did that years and years ago can remember how they could go out in the soil and, you know, feel the soil and know the difference. And now it's like some of these fields to me, just look like they're they're dead because they have so much chemical and the time that it stays there, residual effects. So I know if you're putting any thing on there, that's killing the the life of the soil. To me, you're just pushing a seed with what you're putting in the ground. The soil is not supporting the seed. So that is where I want to go. I want to have the soil healthy so that what we plant grows from the soil, not from what you're giving it.
Liz Brownlee
That's what we need if we want our food system to be sustainable. But for farmers to make that switch, they need support. Right now, we subsidize industrial ag in these ways. What if the government put some of that money towards farmers like Tracy and her husband, Kenny, so they could transition away from the chemicals and not have to risk their livelihoods? If you think that's a good idea, give your local legislators a call or join the National Young Farmers Coalition and help create policies and funding that equip farmers like the Jaeger's for success. Tracy Jaeger and her husband, Kenny own Jaeger, Family Farm and Bebop and produce in Union County, Indiana. We also heard from Adam Trost of Bent Arrow Acres in Russiaville. This is the Hoosier Young Farmers podcast brought to you with support from Indiana Huamanities, the Hoosier Young Farmers Coalition and the National Young Farmers Coalition. If you want to learn more about how we're updating the narrative on food and farming in Indiana, go to Hoosier Y F C dot O R G backslash stories. Thanks to Andrew Raridon and Jessica Murnane for coordinating these interviews and Andrew Raridon and Rachel Brandenburg for conducting interviews.
Alex Chambers
Our theme music is from Amy O., and we have additional music from Ramón Monrás-Sender and Airport People. Our host, Liz Brownlee, helped this project off the ground and it was produced by me, Alex Chambers. Thanks for listening.
Episode 5: Making It Pay
Episode to come!
Episode 6: Community
Liz Brownlee
Hey, everybody, this is Liz Brownlee. I'm a farmer in southeast Indiana and President of the Hoosier Young Farmers Coalition.
Alex Chambers
And I'm Alex Chambers, producer of the Hoosier Young Farmers Podcast, which is the one you're listening to...
Liz Brownlee
Right now.
Alex Chambers
So Liz, what made you start the Hoosier Young Farmers Coalition?
Liz Brownlee
OK, well, first I did not do it on my own. There was this whole group of farmers actually who launched the Coalition, and it's definitely a group effort making this thing work from month to month. We got our start actually back in 2016, a bunch of sustainable farmers, we're on this trip to Maine and Vermont along with our extension agents. Actually, Purdue University had this huge grant to help beginning farmers, and one key thing the grant funded was trips to visit other states where the food system was, let's say, more mature than Indiana. And so here we are on this week long bus tour, stopping at these incredible farms and chatting with the farmers and just learning a ton. And we were having fun. It was so nice and we spent this time together on the bus and over meals, sharing about our own farms too right? Like not just learning from the folks we were visiting, but sharing about our challenges and what we were planning next. And it felt really good to commiserate and celebrate together. Right. So halfway through the week, we said, Wait a minute, we need more of this, right? This can't end at the end of this week. We need more time together learning with other beginning farmers. So we started talking about how we can launch a farmer group. Most other states have like a statewide organic farming association, and Indiana does not, yet. So we weren't really ready to launch a non-profit of that scale back then. But thankfully, the National Young Farmers Coalition has this structure for chapters. They're actually 50 chapters all over the country, and we said let's start the Indiana one, and that'll give us a way to start getting together because the national folks, they do like policy work, but the chapters can do whatever the farmers need in that area. And so we said we need a community. And so we started hosting like farm tours and farm get togethers and like brewery nights. And right away we saw that most people who started small scale farms, they they don't just think about their crops or their livestock. They're thinking about community, the communities where they farm and they're working to address specific needs in their community through food. And they're really excited to share with other small scale farmers.
Alex Chambers
Does that feel different from industrial AG?
Liz Brownlee
Oh gosh. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Industrial AG is very proprietary, right down to the seeds and the chemicals. And when you're farming on that scale, the bottom line is really about finances. Community doesn't really necessarily play into it. That's not to say that some of the big farmers aren't community minded. It's just not a piece of the economic sort of model. Whereas in sustainable AG, there's that triple bottom line finances matter. And actually, for more on that, we did an episode all about it - Making It Pay. But a sustainable farm actually judges it's success based on if you're helping build a stronger community and if you're helping improve the health of the land and water. And so people who get in small scale, diversified ag really value community. I'd say they're even like aching for it, like always offering community. Can I give you an example?
Alex Chambers
Yeah, please.
Liz Brownlee
OK, so last month, I was on a call for the Hoosier Young Farmers Fellowship program. We have people who get funds to invest in infrastructure in their farms and scale up their operations, and so I was just on the call to like, offer support or connections. It was really about the Fellows, but we were just like checking in about how our farms were doing. And I said, like, whoo, I gotta move some eggs you guys, like we scaled up our laying hen operation, maybe a smidge too much. We have about 70 dozen eggs a week to move every single week, week after week, and that's a lot of eggs. And right away, two of the folks on the call, Sharrona Moore and Daniel Garcia, said, Oh, I can maybe help. Right. So Daniel said he has this like distribution he does to restaurants and he'd be happy to list our eggs as an option. And Sharrona said, Oh, I know this new black-owned market that's opening in Indy, I think they need eggs. Let me connect you with them. And so we were able to move some eggs through those outlets and they were just ready to help. No hesitation. No self-interest. They just wanted to see me do better because that's I think that's especially true of small scale farms, as we all do better when we all do better. We're not really competing with each other. We're like cheering each other on, which is really it's like the warm fuzzies. It's good, you know,
Alex Chambers
but it's also effective
Liz Brownlee
And it's effective. Yeah, I can throw one other thing in there. So I see it as like all warm fuzzies. Not everybody does, right, because I'm in smaller markets. So maybe the bigger markets. One of our board members, Genesis McKiernan-Allen, she calls it co-op-etition, right? So there's there's an element of competition, right? Of course. I want to sell all of my produce today, but market is better and stronger if people show up and there's an abundance of food, and that's same for the local grocery store or the restaurant that's featuring local food. And we all do better when there's more and people can get more consistent supply of local food. And she's actually the one who says that we all do better when we all do better.
Alex Chambers
Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. So, is that what we're going to hear about?
Liz Brownlee
Yeah. Did I not say that? But this episode is all about community, so we're going to hear it from a bunch of farmers all around the state talking about how community plays into their farm and what they're trying to do with their communities.
Joyce Randolph
When we first bought the garden, it had a six-foot-tall chain-link fence with barbed wire across the top. Now what does that tell you? Stay out. We don't want that. We want you to come in and we want you to know that we are here and we want you to be a part of what we're doing. So one of the first things we did with our grant money was take down that fence and put up another one. We now have a beautiful white picket type fence with a gate that is totally visible. Everybody sees us. We see everybody. You can open that gate. You can walk in. You can say, Hey, Miss Randolph, how you doing? You know? And people pull up in cars and they're like, can we come in the garden and like, sure you can come on, you know? And it now makes it so that they get a feeling that, oh, they really want us to be a part of what they're doing and they want to be a part of the neighborhood because a fence, a six foot tall barbed wire fence is not inviting. In order to help the community, we got to give them the feeling that we want to be part of the community.
Megan Ayers
I have a really visible farm, too. It's on a busy road, unfortunately. People do stop by and ask me questions, which I appreciate. And in fact, that's how I've met a couple of like minded farmers because they saw that I had like low tunnels out in the field and they said, Oh my gosh, that person is growing a market garden and they're using low tunnels. And so I actually ended up meeting them at market and they told me that they were slightly stalking me from the road because they were watching the farm get built over the last couple of months. And it just made me laugh because it is such a stark contrast to my neighbors.
Sibeko Jywanza
We live in places where the natural farmland and those things are coming out of our communities and factories and a lot of mass production types of things are going into our communities and creating an atmosphere where it's hard to grow food, where our soil is not sustainable enough to actually grow the food, or it's filled with a whole bunch of nasty particles that we can't consume. And all this time, every single day and I'm talking about someone is making millions to billions of dollars off of this and able to sustain themselves and their families. Someone, some entity, some company, some group is making enough money to be able to not have to worry about that where you're already limiting the resources that people in underserved communities have. And on top of that, you're making it harder for us to survive within our bodies, starting at birth, making it harder for environmentally, for us to sustain ourselves. And that's something that we actually can't control. There is nothing that we can do. There's no community meeting that's going to solve my air not being breathable or causing some type of cancer.
[MUSIC]
Sibeko Jywanza
Our farm wraps around our preschool playground, and so the daycare students, if it's five year olds, when they come outside to play during the spring and summer times, they can see the farming happening. And so they're getting introduced at a very early age in terms of where food comes from, what's going on with food. They're learning about seeds. They're learning about the nutritional aspect of that. Another reason it's therapeutic. Our Feed program focuses on young people who have been kicked out or dropped out of school or have been incarcerated, who graduated high school, but are trying to find that next step in terms of what they're trying to do. So we focus on that 16 to 24 year old age group that are dealing with a lot of trauma that might be dealing with a lot of issues at home or socially, and farming it can be therapeutic. You know, you, you get out there and your own thoughts and you start taking care of these plants and things like that. You know, it can be something that can actually heal if you allow it and take it seriously.
Adam Trost
Yeah, I mean, my grandpa, you know, they would raise hogs, and he's told us stories that they would have six or seven or eight families get together on a weekend and they would process hogs together. Everybody was involved packaging all the meat together, grinding it, making it. And it was a community event
Sharrona Moore
All together I was able to offer our youth for our community twenty five weeks of programming at the farm and as much as I felt like I needed them, they needed us too. They needed a place to be creative and to be inspired, and to also just to exert some of the energies that they needed to, needed to release because they were sheltering in place.
John Roach
I would go find these old farmers that are 80s 90s. And just talk to them, ask them because they are more than willing to share their knowledge. Just spend some time to that, someone has the same interests that they did.
David Sims
We built a lot of community with being involved with this Bargersville farmer's market and connecting ourselves because before by growing 50 minutes away, we weren't really connected with anybody. We were connected with our restaurant customers and we were growing in that realm. But as far as really being a part of a community and really connecting with people and letting people know within your neighborhood or locale what you're doing and why you're doing it, we haven't really done that before. And so being able to do that this past year was awesome. And we built a lot of great customers, a customer base through that.
Ann Merritt
I am most excited about the future potential for just new business, but also new small scale farms like what I have here, and I kind of hope that this model inspires people to try it close to towns like we are because we're like really close to the city center. It's like 10 15 minutes to just about anywhere to deliver and stuff. So that's just like the ultimate. That's the ideal. And I just would like to be a source of motivation and inspiration to the next generation coming up to be like I saw those people with that weird farm on the hill and they just, you know, they just did it then. So you know that I look forward to that. And I also look forward to the stories that my children tell.
Daniel Garcia
There's a lady, maybe she's Peruvian. She has like two kids and she's always over here, like, take my son and have him go pick some beets and cilantro and everything. And and he's like, I don't know if he's like a fourth grader or something, but he's just kind of like, this is the weirdest thing ever. You know, it's just kind of fun. It's good to have that kind of influence on people, however minor it is. I mean, I just like watching people pull stuff out of the ground and then they just like, have this amazement on their face like we hav, we've had like a couple of kindergarten groups come out here and just pull carrots in the fall and they're just like, wow, carrot.
Mary Winstead
We value our local food system and we want to continue to grow that. So for us, that is the service, and that is one thing that we have agreed upon. You know, we know that we could take our product to the grocery store and try to market it there. Maybe we'll get there some day. But right now we value being able to go to our local farmer's market and be a vendor there and to support that environment and to encourage and support our vendors who are also there. So for us, you know, our local food system, like very local food system, our one farmer's market that we're doing right now, Linton Farmer's Markets But you know, we we hope to be able to produce more and to go to some local surrounding markets as well and to provide them with with food as well.
Daniel Garcia
We had a tour come over with the Purdue Small Farms Conference and it was it was just so nice because they all, like, we were unloading the truck and everybody gets there like a half hour earlier than we planned. But they they all kind of just. I said, OK, let's go walk back to the, you know, to see the high tunnels or whatever, and everybody like grabbed a piece of tunnel and brought it back to where we were carrying it. It was just like it was so nice. And that was the weekend before everything shut down.
Mary Winstead
I hope my farm can make my community stronger by being social advocates for healthy food and access to healthy food for everyone.
Daniel Garcia
So if we can kind of share what we have and help others, I think that's going to be a that's going to go a lot further than like trying to, I don't know, have a bunch of trade secrets on how we grow produce and stuff. You know.
Joyce Randolph
It's like I'm president of our neighborhood association. We cover from Sherman to Emerson, from 30th Street to 38th Street. If we can just make an impact on the people that live in that area, then I feel that we have done some of the things that are the purpose behind us having a garden.
Liz Brownlee
And there you have it, folks, this is the Hoosier Young Farmer podcast brought to you with support from Indiana Humanities, the Hoosier Young Farmers Coalition and National Young Farmers Coalition. To learn more about how we're updating the narrative on food and farming in Indiana go to Hoosier YFC dot O R G backslash Stories. Thanks to the farmers who lent their voices to this episode, that was Meghan Ayers, Daniel Garcia, Sibeko Jywanza, Ann Merritt, Sharona Moore, Joyce Randolph, Armonda Riggs, John Roach, David Sims, Adam Trost, and Mary Winstead. Thanks to Andrew Raridon and Jessica Murnane for coordinating these interviews. And Andrew Raridon again, as well as Rachael Brandenburg for conducting the interviews.
Alex Chambers
Our theme music is from Amy O, and we have additional music from Ramón Monrás-Sender. Our host, Liz Brownlee, got this project off the ground and it was produced by me, Alex Chambers. Thanks for listening.
Hey, everybody, this is Liz Brownlee. I'm a farmer in southeast Indiana and President of the Hoosier Young Farmers Coalition.
Alex Chambers
And I'm Alex Chambers, producer of the Hoosier Young Farmers Podcast, which is the one you're listening to...
Liz Brownlee
Right now.
Alex Chambers
So Liz, what made you start the Hoosier Young Farmers Coalition?
Liz Brownlee
OK, well, first I did not do it on my own. There was this whole group of farmers actually who launched the Coalition, and it's definitely a group effort making this thing work from month to month. We got our start actually back in 2016, a bunch of sustainable farmers, we're on this trip to Maine and Vermont along with our extension agents. Actually, Purdue University had this huge grant to help beginning farmers, and one key thing the grant funded was trips to visit other states where the food system was, let's say, more mature than Indiana. And so here we are on this week long bus tour, stopping at these incredible farms and chatting with the farmers and just learning a ton. And we were having fun. It was so nice and we spent this time together on the bus and over meals, sharing about our own farms too right? Like not just learning from the folks we were visiting, but sharing about our challenges and what we were planning next. And it felt really good to commiserate and celebrate together. Right. So halfway through the week, we said, Wait a minute, we need more of this, right? This can't end at the end of this week. We need more time together learning with other beginning farmers. So we started talking about how we can launch a farmer group. Most other states have like a statewide organic farming association, and Indiana does not, yet. So we weren't really ready to launch a non-profit of that scale back then. But thankfully, the National Young Farmers Coalition has this structure for chapters. They're actually 50 chapters all over the country, and we said let's start the Indiana one, and that'll give us a way to start getting together because the national folks, they do like policy work, but the chapters can do whatever the farmers need in that area. And so we said we need a community. And so we started hosting like farm tours and farm get togethers and like brewery nights. And right away we saw that most people who started small scale farms, they they don't just think about their crops or their livestock. They're thinking about community, the communities where they farm and they're working to address specific needs in their community through food. And they're really excited to share with other small scale farmers.
Alex Chambers
Does that feel different from industrial AG?
Liz Brownlee
Oh gosh. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Industrial AG is very proprietary, right down to the seeds and the chemicals. And when you're farming on that scale, the bottom line is really about finances. Community doesn't really necessarily play into it. That's not to say that some of the big farmers aren't community minded. It's just not a piece of the economic sort of model. Whereas in sustainable AG, there's that triple bottom line finances matter. And actually, for more on that, we did an episode all about it - Making It Pay. But a sustainable farm actually judges it's success based on if you're helping build a stronger community and if you're helping improve the health of the land and water. And so people who get in small scale, diversified ag really value community. I'd say they're even like aching for it, like always offering community. Can I give you an example?
Alex Chambers
Yeah, please.
Liz Brownlee
OK, so last month, I was on a call for the Hoosier Young Farmers Fellowship program. We have people who get funds to invest in infrastructure in their farms and scale up their operations, and so I was just on the call to like, offer support or connections. It was really about the Fellows, but we were just like checking in about how our farms were doing. And I said, like, whoo, I gotta move some eggs you guys, like we scaled up our laying hen operation, maybe a smidge too much. We have about 70 dozen eggs a week to move every single week, week after week, and that's a lot of eggs. And right away, two of the folks on the call, Sharrona Moore and Daniel Garcia, said, Oh, I can maybe help. Right. So Daniel said he has this like distribution he does to restaurants and he'd be happy to list our eggs as an option. And Sharrona said, Oh, I know this new black-owned market that's opening in Indy, I think they need eggs. Let me connect you with them. And so we were able to move some eggs through those outlets and they were just ready to help. No hesitation. No self-interest. They just wanted to see me do better because that's I think that's especially true of small scale farms, as we all do better when we all do better. We're not really competing with each other. We're like cheering each other on, which is really it's like the warm fuzzies. It's good, you know,
Alex Chambers
but it's also effective
Liz Brownlee
And it's effective. Yeah, I can throw one other thing in there. So I see it as like all warm fuzzies. Not everybody does, right, because I'm in smaller markets. So maybe the bigger markets. One of our board members, Genesis McKiernan-Allen, she calls it co-op-etition, right? So there's there's an element of competition, right? Of course. I want to sell all of my produce today, but market is better and stronger if people show up and there's an abundance of food, and that's same for the local grocery store or the restaurant that's featuring local food. And we all do better when there's more and people can get more consistent supply of local food. And she's actually the one who says that we all do better when we all do better.
Alex Chambers
Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. So, is that what we're going to hear about?
Liz Brownlee
Yeah. Did I not say that? But this episode is all about community, so we're going to hear it from a bunch of farmers all around the state talking about how community plays into their farm and what they're trying to do with their communities.
Joyce Randolph
When we first bought the garden, it had a six-foot-tall chain-link fence with barbed wire across the top. Now what does that tell you? Stay out. We don't want that. We want you to come in and we want you to know that we are here and we want you to be a part of what we're doing. So one of the first things we did with our grant money was take down that fence and put up another one. We now have a beautiful white picket type fence with a gate that is totally visible. Everybody sees us. We see everybody. You can open that gate. You can walk in. You can say, Hey, Miss Randolph, how you doing? You know? And people pull up in cars and they're like, can we come in the garden and like, sure you can come on, you know? And it now makes it so that they get a feeling that, oh, they really want us to be a part of what they're doing and they want to be a part of the neighborhood because a fence, a six foot tall barbed wire fence is not inviting. In order to help the community, we got to give them the feeling that we want to be part of the community.
Megan Ayers
I have a really visible farm, too. It's on a busy road, unfortunately. People do stop by and ask me questions, which I appreciate. And in fact, that's how I've met a couple of like minded farmers because they saw that I had like low tunnels out in the field and they said, Oh my gosh, that person is growing a market garden and they're using low tunnels. And so I actually ended up meeting them at market and they told me that they were slightly stalking me from the road because they were watching the farm get built over the last couple of months. And it just made me laugh because it is such a stark contrast to my neighbors.
Sibeko Jywanza
We live in places where the natural farmland and those things are coming out of our communities and factories and a lot of mass production types of things are going into our communities and creating an atmosphere where it's hard to grow food, where our soil is not sustainable enough to actually grow the food, or it's filled with a whole bunch of nasty particles that we can't consume. And all this time, every single day and I'm talking about someone is making millions to billions of dollars off of this and able to sustain themselves and their families. Someone, some entity, some company, some group is making enough money to be able to not have to worry about that where you're already limiting the resources that people in underserved communities have. And on top of that, you're making it harder for us to survive within our bodies, starting at birth, making it harder for environmentally, for us to sustain ourselves. And that's something that we actually can't control. There is nothing that we can do. There's no community meeting that's going to solve my air not being breathable or causing some type of cancer.
[MUSIC]
Sibeko Jywanza
Our farm wraps around our preschool playground, and so the daycare students, if it's five year olds, when they come outside to play during the spring and summer times, they can see the farming happening. And so they're getting introduced at a very early age in terms of where food comes from, what's going on with food. They're learning about seeds. They're learning about the nutritional aspect of that. Another reason it's therapeutic. Our Feed program focuses on young people who have been kicked out or dropped out of school or have been incarcerated, who graduated high school, but are trying to find that next step in terms of what they're trying to do. So we focus on that 16 to 24 year old age group that are dealing with a lot of trauma that might be dealing with a lot of issues at home or socially, and farming it can be therapeutic. You know, you, you get out there and your own thoughts and you start taking care of these plants and things like that. You know, it can be something that can actually heal if you allow it and take it seriously.
Adam Trost
Yeah, I mean, my grandpa, you know, they would raise hogs, and he's told us stories that they would have six or seven or eight families get together on a weekend and they would process hogs together. Everybody was involved packaging all the meat together, grinding it, making it. And it was a community event
Sharrona Moore
All together I was able to offer our youth for our community twenty five weeks of programming at the farm and as much as I felt like I needed them, they needed us too. They needed a place to be creative and to be inspired, and to also just to exert some of the energies that they needed to, needed to release because they were sheltering in place.
John Roach
I would go find these old farmers that are 80s 90s. And just talk to them, ask them because they are more than willing to share their knowledge. Just spend some time to that, someone has the same interests that they did.
David Sims
We built a lot of community with being involved with this Bargersville farmer's market and connecting ourselves because before by growing 50 minutes away, we weren't really connected with anybody. We were connected with our restaurant customers and we were growing in that realm. But as far as really being a part of a community and really connecting with people and letting people know within your neighborhood or locale what you're doing and why you're doing it, we haven't really done that before. And so being able to do that this past year was awesome. And we built a lot of great customers, a customer base through that.
Ann Merritt
I am most excited about the future potential for just new business, but also new small scale farms like what I have here, and I kind of hope that this model inspires people to try it close to towns like we are because we're like really close to the city center. It's like 10 15 minutes to just about anywhere to deliver and stuff. So that's just like the ultimate. That's the ideal. And I just would like to be a source of motivation and inspiration to the next generation coming up to be like I saw those people with that weird farm on the hill and they just, you know, they just did it then. So you know that I look forward to that. And I also look forward to the stories that my children tell.
Daniel Garcia
There's a lady, maybe she's Peruvian. She has like two kids and she's always over here, like, take my son and have him go pick some beets and cilantro and everything. And and he's like, I don't know if he's like a fourth grader or something, but he's just kind of like, this is the weirdest thing ever. You know, it's just kind of fun. It's good to have that kind of influence on people, however minor it is. I mean, I just like watching people pull stuff out of the ground and then they just like, have this amazement on their face like we hav, we've had like a couple of kindergarten groups come out here and just pull carrots in the fall and they're just like, wow, carrot.
Mary Winstead
We value our local food system and we want to continue to grow that. So for us, that is the service, and that is one thing that we have agreed upon. You know, we know that we could take our product to the grocery store and try to market it there. Maybe we'll get there some day. But right now we value being able to go to our local farmer's market and be a vendor there and to support that environment and to encourage and support our vendors who are also there. So for us, you know, our local food system, like very local food system, our one farmer's market that we're doing right now, Linton Farmer's Markets But you know, we we hope to be able to produce more and to go to some local surrounding markets as well and to provide them with with food as well.
Daniel Garcia
We had a tour come over with the Purdue Small Farms Conference and it was it was just so nice because they all, like, we were unloading the truck and everybody gets there like a half hour earlier than we planned. But they they all kind of just. I said, OK, let's go walk back to the, you know, to see the high tunnels or whatever, and everybody like grabbed a piece of tunnel and brought it back to where we were carrying it. It was just like it was so nice. And that was the weekend before everything shut down.
Mary Winstead
I hope my farm can make my community stronger by being social advocates for healthy food and access to healthy food for everyone.
Daniel Garcia
So if we can kind of share what we have and help others, I think that's going to be a that's going to go a lot further than like trying to, I don't know, have a bunch of trade secrets on how we grow produce and stuff. You know.
Joyce Randolph
It's like I'm president of our neighborhood association. We cover from Sherman to Emerson, from 30th Street to 38th Street. If we can just make an impact on the people that live in that area, then I feel that we have done some of the things that are the purpose behind us having a garden.
Liz Brownlee
And there you have it, folks, this is the Hoosier Young Farmer podcast brought to you with support from Indiana Humanities, the Hoosier Young Farmers Coalition and National Young Farmers Coalition. To learn more about how we're updating the narrative on food and farming in Indiana go to Hoosier YFC dot O R G backslash Stories. Thanks to the farmers who lent their voices to this episode, that was Meghan Ayers, Daniel Garcia, Sibeko Jywanza, Ann Merritt, Sharona Moore, Joyce Randolph, Armonda Riggs, John Roach, David Sims, Adam Trost, and Mary Winstead. Thanks to Andrew Raridon and Jessica Murnane for coordinating these interviews. And Andrew Raridon again, as well as Rachael Brandenburg for conducting the interviews.
Alex Chambers
Our theme music is from Amy O, and we have additional music from Ramón Monrás-Sender. Our host, Liz Brownlee, got this project off the ground and it was produced by me, Alex Chambers. Thanks for listening.
Episode 7: Family, Workflow, Balancing Act
Alex Chambers
Hey Liz
Liz Brownlee
Hey, Alex.
Alex Chambers
So, Liz, I've been curious, you're a full time farmer, right?
Liz Brownlee
True.
Alex Chambers
And you're also the president of the Hoosier Young Farmers Coalition.
Liz Brownlee
True.
Alex Chambers
And you got this podcast off the ground.
Liz Brownlee
True.
Alex Chambers
And you have at least one other job.
Liz Brownlee
Uh huh...
Alex Chambers
How's your farm life balance?
Liz Brownlee
Oh, I would say bad at the moment. Honestly, it's tough, especially this time of year. You know, here we are in the height of the season, it's hot. The grass is growing. We have all of the animals on our farm. So some days feel full and beautiful. The farm work and this effort to try to build farmer community, they really nourish me and I feel useful, and I can sneak a few moments on the porch to like, read my novel. Other days, I feel like I'm just hustling from one thing to the next, like just checking things off a list that never, ever ends. And and that's because there's so much to do. Like, Indiana needs a lot in terms of sustainable AG, and my farm needs a lot in terms of like feeding the pigs and, you know, checking on the baby chicks and sending the emails to the customers. So, I don't know. I will say we are working on this. So the farm life balance thing, we're actually building a cabin right now, which is actually making us a little extra crazy because we're trying to get it done in time for our apprentices to arrive this fall. The first year we're ever doing this. We're going to host two apprentices, and this is largely an effort to try to do two things. We'd like a day off every week. And so when we apprentice on a farm, that's what it was, was the farmers had Sunday off and we were in charge for that day. But the other piece of it, of course, is that we think the sort of like farm life balance will improve because there will be more meaning to our farm if we're sharing what we know and helping someone else on their path. But boy, that cabin has to be done in like three weeks, so we're a little crazy. But that's OK.
Alex Chambers
Yeah. And I imagine if you're also raising kids as so many farmers are, it's just even more complicated.
Liz Brownlee
Yes. More complicated, I think, is the way that works.
Alex Chambers
I mean, it's just like, it's exhausting and so much work. So I have a sort of another story a related story about that.
Liz Brownlee
OK
Alex Chambers
I worked on farms through my twenties, and my first job was when I was 20 years old and my boss, the farmer was actually only a year older than me, but he was kind of a farm prodigy. He had started growing and selling pumpkins when he was like 14. So he was a veteran by the time he was 21 and I worked normal hours. I was a hired hand, eight to four. So Saturday markets. I don't think Ryan ever stopped working. Including one day a thunderstorm was rolling in and we were hoeing carrots and it started pouring. So me and the other two farmhands, we rushed to the van and then we looked back and we saw that Ryan was still out in the field, humming away, lightning flashing all around.
Liz Brownlee
I can picture it.
Alex Chambers
One of the other employees basically had to drag him out of the field for his own safety, which is to say, working too much on your farm can also be hazardous. But I imagine it's also pretty hard to avoid.
Liz Brownlee
Yeah, it's impossible to avoid unless you start to put some systems in place. So that's actually what this episode's all about is like how are farmers running a business and raising their kids and doing all the other things that their life demands, dividing their labor and and checking the things off the list? But also, I'm not going crazy? So let's hear from the farmers.
Alex Chambers
Sounds great.
Dan Perkins
It's pretty classic farm arrangement. You know, I I'm the grower. I'm the one out in the field. I manage production and Julie manages the marketing, keeps the books. She technically owns 51 percent of the farm, so she would. I'm just a worker, I mean, she's the boss
Mary Winstead
From the beginning, one of the things that Roger had said is that he really hoped that he could have a more hands on approach to raising our child than what he had had in the past. You know, just working, working, working. So we purposely decided to do a first shift, second shift. So I did first shift at home. He was head gardener at a country club. And so he went in early like six seven o'clock in the morning. He can get off around three and then I would take second shift and do onsite. So he was the second shift dad and loved it. He's always been really eager to be like 50 percent. He does most of the cooking around here, he's a fabulous cook. He's a he's not a trained chef, but he has worked professionally cooking on and off. So over the years, he's found a lot of extra little gigs to do. So he's real, versatile at doing that and then also is just stepping in. Whatever needs to be done,
Julie Perkins
I would say, in terms of division of labor, we did what we like to do and we're good at. So like I didn't study soil sciences, I grew up growing things. I know how to grow stuff, but I mean the level of growing that Dan is doing with this many crops, there's so much technical knowledge that I don't have and I'm really not interested in. I love to cook and I like to teach. I like to have relationship and do community building. So for us, it was a very logical division. And then of course, we've had like major arguments throughout when we're treading on each other's space, especially when we had to share a space that was our wash pack shed and distribution area for a time that I felt like we probably argued every single day. I mean, not day, but like every Monday before our distribution, we would be arguing an then people would come in. They would, you know, we need to be sure of it. But then I really would like Dan again by the end of distribution. Because, yeah, yeah, because I would have been like just charged up from seeing so many people.
Julie Perkins
For us, it's been like, very clearly. This is like if Dan is doing something in the growing realm and he asked for my help, I'm going to defer to him. He has more knowledge if I'm doing something and it's in my realm and I need his help, like, Hey Dan, can you write this up? He's going to defer to me, so I would say that has worked really well for us. And in terms of balancing the children aspect with is, we literally map out who is lead parent at what times throughout the week,
Dan Perkins
Often in like two hour chunks. Yeah, OK, I take the mornings, get them ready for school breakfast, you know, when they get home. Julie kind of oversees that. And then like 4:35
Julie Perkins
During the winter.
Dan Perkins
During the winter. I'm done like we're we're together parenting and we're trying to move more and more towards that where it's
Julie Perkins
which with a lot of grace and flexibility because it is farming, right? So it's like, Oh, that water line, blah blah blah. Oh crap, that was my office hours
Kristi Schulz
Together we kind of complement each other in our skill sets, which is really nice. I do have some of the biology and the science background that makes this very interesting to me. My husband, he has an MBA. He was in business for many years, and so he's got definitely the business background. Also, he had more of an agricultural background than I had, grew up on a farm or working for farmers. And he also is very handy and can fix things that are broken, which on a farm is very, very helpful
Adam Trost
In the summer when the pasture is growing every day. Typically, in the morning, I'll do chores, run and check feed and water, and then in the evenings I move the animals like, I'll move the cows every day.
Adam Trost
I'll move the chickens behind the cows. The meat chickens get moved once every day and the pigs they get moved about once a week.
Adam Trost
That's my part of the farm is taking care of the animals, taking care of the pasture, weed eating fence rows, that type of stuff. And she is much more the customer relation.
Clare Trost
Yeah, eggs are also kind of my domain. Yeah. Taking care of the egg laying hens, collecting eggs, cleaning and packaging those. And then we have found that social media and email lists are very important to connect us to our consumers, but also use them as a tool to help educate. And that's very important to me because I was the kid who didn't know where food came from. And so I love being able to teach people a little bit more about what growing food looks like, what a farmer even looks like. It's not necessarily your storybook sort of cliche, but it's us with the young family and day jobs, but still very passionate and able to fit it into our lives.
[MUSIC]
Ann Merritt
I kind of have my days broken up into four blocks, and the morning time is like breakfast and children and the household duties, and then before lunch there's farm maintenance and orders and getting things in order and then lunch happens and sometimes between the hours of 12:00 and like 3:00, I'll have people come and do pick ups at the farm. And then oftentimes they'll be pickups from like 4:00 between 4:00 and 6:00 also. So, yeah, I'm like running in and out of the house. And between that, like I'll be out some nights with the headlamp, like running the pinpoint seeder and seeding beds and covering up rows. And then, yeah, it's just all hours of the day and night and just it's nonstop. It feels like there's never really break time. There's never really like, yeah, there's never an end to it, because at all hours of the day and night, there are things that need to be tended to.
Dan Perkins
Yeah, I think the first thing we do is we establish boundaries. So we say, you know, like Sundays, that's our day of rest.
Julie Perkins
Like on Sundays, I don't go on the computer. If people text me, I don't respond. I don't go on any social media and like, no one comes here on Sunday. I don't even know if we've said, Sunday is a day, don't come. I mean, that's very culturally appropriate for Demotte to like Sunday is people's day to go to church and to take and rest if your job allows it. Very much so. That boundary, though, for us, is hugely important.
Dan Perkins
Yeah. And just even physically, the way we set up the farm where the farm stand is, you know, on the East side of the property, our house is on the West. They come in customers, you know, CSA members come in a different entrance. They leave out a different entrance than our driveway. I think that that all helps a lot.
Julie Perkins
It does. But and I I think what's so unique about, like you say, people coming like, there's a huge advantage there for us too, because our customers are like gracious people who I don't think we have anybody who doesn't get the concept of boundaries. Nobody we've met yet, at least we don't have people like knocking on our door at night. I've never had that.
Ann Merritt
I didn't think it would be such a juggle. I for some reason I had this ideal that my children would be like excited about what we were doing.
Dan Perkins
Yeah. So we divide our division of labor and we, you know, we set up specific practices and weekly schedules to make sure that we communicate clearly because we have four kids, all under the age of 12. And that makes it fairly chaotic and busy. And, you know, Sunday nights we have our planner meeting where we just talk about the last week and our goals for next week come up with a schedule, you know, we pray together. Typically on Wednesdays, we have like the farm meeting. So if we have some farm related business, you know, we save it till Wednesday as best we can, right? I mean, are we always talking about the farm? Yes, but we try to generally keep all that nitty gritty stuff
Julie Perkins
for that meeting
Dan Perkins
for that meeting.
Ann Merritt
I was always like in love with being outside and in nature. So I was just like, I'm going to have kids that are just in love with nature too, which I do. I have them. They're very much in certain aspects of my children and certain ones of my children love it more than others, and that's just fine. But my firstborn is not jazzed about, like getting out and getting dirty and stuff, which is funny. And so it's hard because you have all these expectations on number one and it doesn't work the way you want it to. It's just it doesn't. But yeah, I didn't expect it to be so much. In one day I woke up and I was just like, Well, this is a whole lot, especially after the birth of this last child. She was born on January 5th of last year, and I am just like, Oh man, oh oh man,
Sharrona Moore
My son is 12, and so he runs his own poultry business. He raises a very rare breed of chicken, and he sells them, and we will process them and sell them to our community as well. But that's an income for him. It was a way for me to teach him business skills and also extended agriculture skills. Those are hard skills and some soft skills like customer service. And thank you's. And how to run money transactions and about overhead and profit and things that normal 12 year olds don't really know about.
David Sims
And then my daughter is she's 10. She's becoming more interested. One of her New Year's resolutions, we found out that she wrote down at school what she wants to learn, how to harvest lettuce. So we'll see how that goes. She's starting to. I shouldn't say starting to get it, she kind of floats in and floats out as far as her involvement, we don't make her do anything. I don't want the farm because of my desire to do it, to be a burden or a major task for her. I want it to be Do you find interest in this? And when you do, I'll find something that can fulfill that interest. So she has no specific tasks that she has to do. There may be times where she's interested in doing something, I'm like, Hey, you can do this, and then I make sure she follows through with that, but she doesn't have a daily task lists or anything like that. But we want her to take pride in what we're doing. And I think by us now being here in the community where she goes to school in some of that, you know, her teacher came and bought stuff from us at the farmer's market. So I think as she starts to see what it means to be involved in the community or have a recognition of that, I think she'll start to take some more pride. She loves to go places and know that she's eating our produce from a menu. She loves that aspect of it, and that's a big connection. But I think more of the work reward on a personal one to one perspective, I think she started to see that a little bit more. So, you know, a lot of the reason why I've enjoyed the farming side of it, too, is that we have the opportunity to be together as a family. And she still has her activities as of being a busy kid and things like that. But. You pretty much know where to find us from about March through October on a on a nightly basis, in some way shape or form. And you know, I like that aspect of it, a lot of being together as a family and doing it together and things like that.
Ann Merritt
My mom says, I don't know why you want to work this hard, but I just I find it so rewarding when I take the kids outside and they can identify the food and they're interested in the food. My youngest son, who's five, he just loves like going out and collecting different ingredients and then will maybe make a juice or a salad, and he wants to make stuff with it for everybody. And that, to me, is like just the epitome of what I've worked for.
Liz Brownlee
And there you have it, folks. This is the Hoosier Young Farmer podcast brought to you with support from Indiana Humanities, the Hoosier Young Farmers Coalition and National Young Farmers Coalition. To learn more about how we're updating the narrative on food and farming in Indiana go to Hoosier YFC dot O R G backslash stories. Big thanks to the farmers who lent their voices to this episode. That was Nicci Keaton Ann Merritt, Sharrona Moore, Julie and Dan Perkins, Kristi Schulz, David Sims, Claire and Adam Trost, and Mary Winstead. Thanks to Andrew Raridon and Jessica Murnane for coordinating these interviews. And Andrew Raridon again, as well as Rachael Brandenburg for conducting interviews.
Alex Chambers
Our theme music is from Amy O., and we have additional music from Ramón Monrás-Sender and Backward Collective. Our host, Liz Brownlee, got this project off the ground and it was produced by me, Alex Chambers. Thanks for listening.
Hey Liz
Liz Brownlee
Hey, Alex.
Alex Chambers
So, Liz, I've been curious, you're a full time farmer, right?
Liz Brownlee
True.
Alex Chambers
And you're also the president of the Hoosier Young Farmers Coalition.
Liz Brownlee
True.
Alex Chambers
And you got this podcast off the ground.
Liz Brownlee
True.
Alex Chambers
And you have at least one other job.
Liz Brownlee
Uh huh...
Alex Chambers
How's your farm life balance?
Liz Brownlee
Oh, I would say bad at the moment. Honestly, it's tough, especially this time of year. You know, here we are in the height of the season, it's hot. The grass is growing. We have all of the animals on our farm. So some days feel full and beautiful. The farm work and this effort to try to build farmer community, they really nourish me and I feel useful, and I can sneak a few moments on the porch to like, read my novel. Other days, I feel like I'm just hustling from one thing to the next, like just checking things off a list that never, ever ends. And and that's because there's so much to do. Like, Indiana needs a lot in terms of sustainable AG, and my farm needs a lot in terms of like feeding the pigs and, you know, checking on the baby chicks and sending the emails to the customers. So, I don't know. I will say we are working on this. So the farm life balance thing, we're actually building a cabin right now, which is actually making us a little extra crazy because we're trying to get it done in time for our apprentices to arrive this fall. The first year we're ever doing this. We're going to host two apprentices, and this is largely an effort to try to do two things. We'd like a day off every week. And so when we apprentice on a farm, that's what it was, was the farmers had Sunday off and we were in charge for that day. But the other piece of it, of course, is that we think the sort of like farm life balance will improve because there will be more meaning to our farm if we're sharing what we know and helping someone else on their path. But boy, that cabin has to be done in like three weeks, so we're a little crazy. But that's OK.
Alex Chambers
Yeah. And I imagine if you're also raising kids as so many farmers are, it's just even more complicated.
Liz Brownlee
Yes. More complicated, I think, is the way that works.
Alex Chambers
I mean, it's just like, it's exhausting and so much work. So I have a sort of another story a related story about that.
Liz Brownlee
OK
Alex Chambers
I worked on farms through my twenties, and my first job was when I was 20 years old and my boss, the farmer was actually only a year older than me, but he was kind of a farm prodigy. He had started growing and selling pumpkins when he was like 14. So he was a veteran by the time he was 21 and I worked normal hours. I was a hired hand, eight to four. So Saturday markets. I don't think Ryan ever stopped working. Including one day a thunderstorm was rolling in and we were hoeing carrots and it started pouring. So me and the other two farmhands, we rushed to the van and then we looked back and we saw that Ryan was still out in the field, humming away, lightning flashing all around.
Liz Brownlee
I can picture it.
Alex Chambers
One of the other employees basically had to drag him out of the field for his own safety, which is to say, working too much on your farm can also be hazardous. But I imagine it's also pretty hard to avoid.
Liz Brownlee
Yeah, it's impossible to avoid unless you start to put some systems in place. So that's actually what this episode's all about is like how are farmers running a business and raising their kids and doing all the other things that their life demands, dividing their labor and and checking the things off the list? But also, I'm not going crazy? So let's hear from the farmers.
Alex Chambers
Sounds great.
Dan Perkins
It's pretty classic farm arrangement. You know, I I'm the grower. I'm the one out in the field. I manage production and Julie manages the marketing, keeps the books. She technically owns 51 percent of the farm, so she would. I'm just a worker, I mean, she's the boss
Mary Winstead
From the beginning, one of the things that Roger had said is that he really hoped that he could have a more hands on approach to raising our child than what he had had in the past. You know, just working, working, working. So we purposely decided to do a first shift, second shift. So I did first shift at home. He was head gardener at a country club. And so he went in early like six seven o'clock in the morning. He can get off around three and then I would take second shift and do onsite. So he was the second shift dad and loved it. He's always been really eager to be like 50 percent. He does most of the cooking around here, he's a fabulous cook. He's a he's not a trained chef, but he has worked professionally cooking on and off. So over the years, he's found a lot of extra little gigs to do. So he's real, versatile at doing that and then also is just stepping in. Whatever needs to be done,
Julie Perkins
I would say, in terms of division of labor, we did what we like to do and we're good at. So like I didn't study soil sciences, I grew up growing things. I know how to grow stuff, but I mean the level of growing that Dan is doing with this many crops, there's so much technical knowledge that I don't have and I'm really not interested in. I love to cook and I like to teach. I like to have relationship and do community building. So for us, it was a very logical division. And then of course, we've had like major arguments throughout when we're treading on each other's space, especially when we had to share a space that was our wash pack shed and distribution area for a time that I felt like we probably argued every single day. I mean, not day, but like every Monday before our distribution, we would be arguing an then people would come in. They would, you know, we need to be sure of it. But then I really would like Dan again by the end of distribution. Because, yeah, yeah, because I would have been like just charged up from seeing so many people.
Julie Perkins
For us, it's been like, very clearly. This is like if Dan is doing something in the growing realm and he asked for my help, I'm going to defer to him. He has more knowledge if I'm doing something and it's in my realm and I need his help, like, Hey Dan, can you write this up? He's going to defer to me, so I would say that has worked really well for us. And in terms of balancing the children aspect with is, we literally map out who is lead parent at what times throughout the week,
Dan Perkins
Often in like two hour chunks. Yeah, OK, I take the mornings, get them ready for school breakfast, you know, when they get home. Julie kind of oversees that. And then like 4:35
Julie Perkins
During the winter.
Dan Perkins
During the winter. I'm done like we're we're together parenting and we're trying to move more and more towards that where it's
Julie Perkins
which with a lot of grace and flexibility because it is farming, right? So it's like, Oh, that water line, blah blah blah. Oh crap, that was my office hours
Kristi Schulz
Together we kind of complement each other in our skill sets, which is really nice. I do have some of the biology and the science background that makes this very interesting to me. My husband, he has an MBA. He was in business for many years, and so he's got definitely the business background. Also, he had more of an agricultural background than I had, grew up on a farm or working for farmers. And he also is very handy and can fix things that are broken, which on a farm is very, very helpful
Adam Trost
In the summer when the pasture is growing every day. Typically, in the morning, I'll do chores, run and check feed and water, and then in the evenings I move the animals like, I'll move the cows every day.
Adam Trost
I'll move the chickens behind the cows. The meat chickens get moved once every day and the pigs they get moved about once a week.
Adam Trost
That's my part of the farm is taking care of the animals, taking care of the pasture, weed eating fence rows, that type of stuff. And she is much more the customer relation.
Clare Trost
Yeah, eggs are also kind of my domain. Yeah. Taking care of the egg laying hens, collecting eggs, cleaning and packaging those. And then we have found that social media and email lists are very important to connect us to our consumers, but also use them as a tool to help educate. And that's very important to me because I was the kid who didn't know where food came from. And so I love being able to teach people a little bit more about what growing food looks like, what a farmer even looks like. It's not necessarily your storybook sort of cliche, but it's us with the young family and day jobs, but still very passionate and able to fit it into our lives.
[MUSIC]
Ann Merritt
I kind of have my days broken up into four blocks, and the morning time is like breakfast and children and the household duties, and then before lunch there's farm maintenance and orders and getting things in order and then lunch happens and sometimes between the hours of 12:00 and like 3:00, I'll have people come and do pick ups at the farm. And then oftentimes they'll be pickups from like 4:00 between 4:00 and 6:00 also. So, yeah, I'm like running in and out of the house. And between that, like I'll be out some nights with the headlamp, like running the pinpoint seeder and seeding beds and covering up rows. And then, yeah, it's just all hours of the day and night and just it's nonstop. It feels like there's never really break time. There's never really like, yeah, there's never an end to it, because at all hours of the day and night, there are things that need to be tended to.
Dan Perkins
Yeah, I think the first thing we do is we establish boundaries. So we say, you know, like Sundays, that's our day of rest.
Julie Perkins
Like on Sundays, I don't go on the computer. If people text me, I don't respond. I don't go on any social media and like, no one comes here on Sunday. I don't even know if we've said, Sunday is a day, don't come. I mean, that's very culturally appropriate for Demotte to like Sunday is people's day to go to church and to take and rest if your job allows it. Very much so. That boundary, though, for us, is hugely important.
Dan Perkins
Yeah. And just even physically, the way we set up the farm where the farm stand is, you know, on the East side of the property, our house is on the West. They come in customers, you know, CSA members come in a different entrance. They leave out a different entrance than our driveway. I think that that all helps a lot.
Julie Perkins
It does. But and I I think what's so unique about, like you say, people coming like, there's a huge advantage there for us too, because our customers are like gracious people who I don't think we have anybody who doesn't get the concept of boundaries. Nobody we've met yet, at least we don't have people like knocking on our door at night. I've never had that.
Ann Merritt
I didn't think it would be such a juggle. I for some reason I had this ideal that my children would be like excited about what we were doing.
Dan Perkins
Yeah. So we divide our division of labor and we, you know, we set up specific practices and weekly schedules to make sure that we communicate clearly because we have four kids, all under the age of 12. And that makes it fairly chaotic and busy. And, you know, Sunday nights we have our planner meeting where we just talk about the last week and our goals for next week come up with a schedule, you know, we pray together. Typically on Wednesdays, we have like the farm meeting. So if we have some farm related business, you know, we save it till Wednesday as best we can, right? I mean, are we always talking about the farm? Yes, but we try to generally keep all that nitty gritty stuff
Julie Perkins
for that meeting
Dan Perkins
for that meeting.
Ann Merritt
I was always like in love with being outside and in nature. So I was just like, I'm going to have kids that are just in love with nature too, which I do. I have them. They're very much in certain aspects of my children and certain ones of my children love it more than others, and that's just fine. But my firstborn is not jazzed about, like getting out and getting dirty and stuff, which is funny. And so it's hard because you have all these expectations on number one and it doesn't work the way you want it to. It's just it doesn't. But yeah, I didn't expect it to be so much. In one day I woke up and I was just like, Well, this is a whole lot, especially after the birth of this last child. She was born on January 5th of last year, and I am just like, Oh man, oh oh man,
Sharrona Moore
My son is 12, and so he runs his own poultry business. He raises a very rare breed of chicken, and he sells them, and we will process them and sell them to our community as well. But that's an income for him. It was a way for me to teach him business skills and also extended agriculture skills. Those are hard skills and some soft skills like customer service. And thank you's. And how to run money transactions and about overhead and profit and things that normal 12 year olds don't really know about.
David Sims
And then my daughter is she's 10. She's becoming more interested. One of her New Year's resolutions, we found out that she wrote down at school what she wants to learn, how to harvest lettuce. So we'll see how that goes. She's starting to. I shouldn't say starting to get it, she kind of floats in and floats out as far as her involvement, we don't make her do anything. I don't want the farm because of my desire to do it, to be a burden or a major task for her. I want it to be Do you find interest in this? And when you do, I'll find something that can fulfill that interest. So she has no specific tasks that she has to do. There may be times where she's interested in doing something, I'm like, Hey, you can do this, and then I make sure she follows through with that, but she doesn't have a daily task lists or anything like that. But we want her to take pride in what we're doing. And I think by us now being here in the community where she goes to school in some of that, you know, her teacher came and bought stuff from us at the farmer's market. So I think as she starts to see what it means to be involved in the community or have a recognition of that, I think she'll start to take some more pride. She loves to go places and know that she's eating our produce from a menu. She loves that aspect of it, and that's a big connection. But I think more of the work reward on a personal one to one perspective, I think she started to see that a little bit more. So, you know, a lot of the reason why I've enjoyed the farming side of it, too, is that we have the opportunity to be together as a family. And she still has her activities as of being a busy kid and things like that. But. You pretty much know where to find us from about March through October on a on a nightly basis, in some way shape or form. And you know, I like that aspect of it, a lot of being together as a family and doing it together and things like that.
Ann Merritt
My mom says, I don't know why you want to work this hard, but I just I find it so rewarding when I take the kids outside and they can identify the food and they're interested in the food. My youngest son, who's five, he just loves like going out and collecting different ingredients and then will maybe make a juice or a salad, and he wants to make stuff with it for everybody. And that, to me, is like just the epitome of what I've worked for.
Liz Brownlee
And there you have it, folks. This is the Hoosier Young Farmer podcast brought to you with support from Indiana Humanities, the Hoosier Young Farmers Coalition and National Young Farmers Coalition. To learn more about how we're updating the narrative on food and farming in Indiana go to Hoosier YFC dot O R G backslash stories. Big thanks to the farmers who lent their voices to this episode. That was Nicci Keaton Ann Merritt, Sharrona Moore, Julie and Dan Perkins, Kristi Schulz, David Sims, Claire and Adam Trost, and Mary Winstead. Thanks to Andrew Raridon and Jessica Murnane for coordinating these interviews. And Andrew Raridon again, as well as Rachael Brandenburg for conducting interviews.
Alex Chambers
Our theme music is from Amy O., and we have additional music from Ramón Monrás-Sender and Backward Collective. Our host, Liz Brownlee, got this project off the ground and it was produced by me, Alex Chambers. Thanks for listening.
Bonus Episode: Full Interview with Sibeko Jywanza
Episode to come!
Bonus Episode: Full Interview with Megan Ayers
HYFP Full Interview Megan Ayers 210908.mp3
Liz Brownlee
Hey, everyone, this is Liz Brownlee with a Hoosier Young Farmer podcast bonus episode. If you've listened to our podcast, you know each one is a medley of farmers voices. But we wanted to give you a chance to hear a few uncut conversations, too, because these people are awfully smart. This is a Conversation With Megan Ayers. Megan is the founding farmer and as you'll hear, chicken wrangler at Unvarnished Farm in Deputy Indiana, not too far from the Ohio river in the southeast part of the state. Megan's only been there a couple of years, but before that she was an urban farmer in Cincinnati. She spoke with Andrew Raridon, a professor of food studies and outgoing board member of the Hoosier Young Farmers Coalition.
Andrew Raridon
Do you have any questions about like how this will go or what what we're going to chat about or anything like that?
Megan Ayers
No, your email was really thorough and I'm prepared. I'm just sorry that I'm so congested. I got diagnosed with COVID 19 the other day.
Andrew Raridon
No, you're kidding me.
Megan Ayers
So I'm yeah,
Andrew Raridon
I'm so sorry.
Megan Ayers
I feel, yeah, I'm I feel really lucky because my symptoms are pretty mild. I just had a fever a couple like last week for a couple of days and I was tired, but I was like, I'm just sick. And then my my taste buds went away and my sense of smell went away. And so that's when I was like, Oh, OK, maybe I should get tested, dummy. So as soon as as soon as I got tested, my husband was like, I know you have it, I know you have it. And and I just came back positive like two days ago. So you know, talking to the state and whatnot,
Andrew Raridon
Are you up for it? Do you feel up for a conversation? Because I don't, if
Megan Ayers
absolutely OK.
Andrew Raridon
Because if you're not feeling well or if you feel at any point you're like, You know what? I just got to quit and lay down like that, it's totally fine.
Megan Ayers
So, no, I'm I'm fine.
Andrew Raridon
Yikes, that losing the taste buds as as a farmer, that's a little concerning.
Megan Ayers
Yeah, it's it is really weird because I do enjoy the foods. And yeah, I I was cooking dinner the other night and I was just like, I had no idea what I was doing because I couldn't smell what my food smelled like. So I didn't, you know, you just don't think about how much your sense of smell really affects just your day to day life. But I will say that one of my dogs is really enjoying the fact that I can't smell anything because he has terrible breath and so he doesn't get to kiss me regularly. But now, because I can't smell it and we were making out a lot
Andrew Raridon
A silver lining, right?
Megan Ayers
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker
Oh brother, oh, I'm I'm really sorry that you got diagnosed. I hope. I hope you and your husband are OK and that you bounce back quickly.
Megan Ayers
Yeah, yeah, we should be good. I just feel really lucky. And I and I'm sad, you know, for people who are affected really dramatically and who get hospitalized, I just can't imagine how terrifying that must be for them.
Andrew Raridon
I can't either, especially right now. I know, I don't know what your rates are down down there. I'm sure they're not better, much better than ours. But like our hospitals are pretty full, you know? And so, yeah, yeah, I just went, Oh yeah, what a weird. What a weird time. It's a weird time.
Megan Ayers
It's true. Yeah, we're aren't we, were officially like in a year now. I think, maybe.
Andrew Raridon
Just about, yeah, just about so. Yeah, hopefully I kept saying hopefully by this time next year, everything will be done, hopefully by this time next year, everything will be done. We can we can only hope. But yeah,
Megan Ayers
Yeah. Twenty twenty two. Here we come.
Andrew Raridon
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Well, Megan, this is what I would like to do. We're starting out with just sort of collecting some basic demographic information. So if you want to start by telling us like your name and the name of your farm and where you farm and what you raise or grow,
Megan Ayers
Sure. My name is Megan Ayers and I am the founder, farmer and chicken wrangler at Unvarnished Farm in Deputy Indiana, which is in southeastern Indiana. And it is an incredibly small town which has about the same population and age range, according to the census. So it is a tiny place and it is a place very much enmeshed in conventional row crop commodity farming. So the farm that I am on is just under 11 acres and has for, I think the entire life of the farm been soybean, corn and hay operation.
Andrew Raridon
I took a peek at your website and that's what it looked like to me as well. You have these giant open fields that look like they would grow corn on a normal in a normal season. So tell me how you ended up down there.
Megan Ayers
So I was doing some urban agriculture in Cincinnati for about six years and had a pretty thriving CSA going in my neighborhood. My husband and I began to talk about the possibilities of moving to a place where we had some land, and so he is the most well, we're both mobile as far as our jobs are concerned. So he found a job in Louisville and we began to search for a place to live and we just couldn't find anything that was even remotely affordable. So even like renting an apartment seemed kind of out of the realm of possibility for us. And so we just began to expand our search and we were expanding and expanding and expanding, and we ended up in Deputy Indiana, which is about an hour outside of Louisville. So, yeah, I there wasn't really a choice. I guess we didn't have that much to choose from. It was just kind of like it was here or it was there were like two other really small farms available. And everywhere we looked was the price of land was just really out of our reach and we both work full time and we both actually have part time jobs on top of our full time jobs as well. And so we were really surprised that it was so difficult to get a couple of acres. We figured it wouldn't be so hard. And then once we found a place that we liked and we could afford, then we ran into some issues with financing because we couldn't get a traditional mortgage for the farm. And then when we were told to go to the FSA, the FSA, well, we were told to go to a banks that give farm loans. And so the farm loan people said that we couldn't get farm loans because we didn't have any agricultural collateral. So because we came from the city, so I don't know how our mortgage broker made it happen, but he made it happen somehow. And so we ended up on this piece of land that needs a lot of healing. Really. I just did a soil test the other day, and we have like no nitrogen in the soil and no phosphorous in the soil. And so I have a market garden, but I also do eggs with laying hens and geese. So I've been doing cover cropping in this last year and rotational grazing with my geese and my hens just to get some of that nitrogen back in the soil. But it's really been an uphill battle to try to just sort of just get some nutrients back in the soil. And I'm surrounded on all sides by traditional cover crop farmers. And so I'm getting also a lot of pesticide drift and also a lot of well-meaning gentlemen stopping by and telling me what I should do with my land as well. You know that I should be growing soybeans and I should be growing corn and or they'd be happy to grow something for me, you know, stuff like that. So. It's been a real transition, but there's a really fantastic community of young farmers around here, which I was surprised by. I just really enjoyed meeting them and feeling supported. When I talk about a growing possibility that isn't necessarily, you know, corn or soy.
Andrew Raridon
Oh man, there's so much here that I want to tease out, first of all, the difficulty that you have even getting a foothold. It's like the chicken or the egg, right? Like, you have to have this agricultural collateral to get farmland, and you can't have that unless you have farmland until you're like stuck in this like gray area here. Like how how frustrating is that?
Megan Ayers
Yeah, we actually were homeless for a couple of weeks in the transition because we we didn't think our house would sell really fast and it sold immediately. And so then we were kind of like just trying to find something and trying to find something. And when the financing fell through and when the loan officer was asking me if I had tractors or, you know, like just something, I joked and I was like, I have like 30 menopausal hens. You know, what's that going to get me? And she did not think that was funny. So it was really touch and go there for a while. And then, you know, once we finally did get the farm, it was more uphill battles with dealing with the soil and just trying to begin amending it, really, especially with no tractor. We don't have any tractor. We have nothing, you know?
Andrew Raridon
So what do you think that you need to...What do you want to see happen in the next year so that you feel like you have a foothold on your farm and on your land? What what do you think needs to happen?
Megan Ayers
Well, for me, you know, soil health is the most important because we can't do anything with plants unless the soil is working in conjunction with those plants. So the first thing I need to do is to continue to work on soil health, really. So continue that pasture rotation, continue cover crops, adding some soil amendments for the market garden, adding some bees as well. I'm just really it's a zero to 100 sort of game. It's a totally blank slate. And so we're literally building a farm from absolutely nothing. And when I say nothing, I mean nothing. We didn't even have like a lawn mower when we moved. So it was like that was our first big purchase was a giant lawn mower to, you know, mow 11 acres, which is just so silly. But you know, it had to happen.
Andrew Raridon
So how? Like, how did you come up with this dream? I mean, you say you don't come from a farming background, you came from an urban area. And now like, here you are in the middle of Indiana, in the middle of like Corn Country, Indiana. Like doing something totally different from what all of your neighbors are doing. So like, where where did that inspiration come from?
Megan Ayers
Yeah. So I hope my mom doesn't hear this, but we never ate fresh vegetables as a kid. It was all like canned and frozen, and I hated them. I thought they were so gross and we would have these standoffs at the dinner table where, you know, I would just sit there with my arms crossed and she would be like, You can't get up until you finish this soup, you know? And I'd be like, Oh, it's so gross lima beans. But all of that changed when I think I was probably five or six years old and our neighbor had a small garden in the back of her house, and I went over and I stole some cherry tomatoes. And, you know, like my little kids, mind was blown because I was like, This is a vegetable and it tastes like candy. This is so good. How come my food doesn't taste like this? And I guess I just sort of stored that memory away? And then when I first moved out, you know, my first apartment, I immediately started like container gardening. And then when I moved into a house, then I started like a small little garden. And then when we bought a house, I said immediately like, Well, I want chickens and I want to grow some more food. And so I just started that way and I started doing some research about the best way to farm when you have really limited space. And so I started learning about the role of soil health in the role of the abundance of food that one is going to grow. And I started learning about permaculture and biodiversity and how it's just one big system and how when we take away the fertility of the soil, we have to input synthetically into that system and that synthetic input kills all of the good stuff. That actually grows our food, and so I kind of just thought it was really obvious. Well, hey, I want to grow good food for as many people as I can in a way that is also going to heal the soil. So I started doing that and it made me feel really good and I thought, Well, if this food makes me feel good, then it's probably going to make other people feel good too. And so by feeding my community, I really engaged in a conversation about food as medicine and food as connection. And so it just sort of grew from there to the point where I wanted to stop doing what I was doing for my full time job and make it farming.
Andrew Raridon
Wow. So tell me more about this idea of food as medicine and food as connection. I mean, what exactly does that mean to you and what do you think that it means to the people that you're feeding?
Megan Ayers
Well, I think that as Americans, we have kind of become brainwashed to think that food is supposed to be easy and fast and really inexpensive. Now I am absolutely not advocating for expensive food, but I am advocating for a reworking of the food system because we've we've just become really....brainwashed isn't the right word. I guess just used to the idea that, you know, food is should have a really long shelf life and cost nearly nothing, but there is definitely a correlation between cheap food and ill health in our country. So I think of food not as just something that gives us the calories to continue to move every day, but it's something that, you know, it affects our mood and affects our sleep. It affects our ability to have energy throughout the day. And so that's why I think of it as medicine. It's, you know, it doesn't come in a spoon and it doesn't and it's supposed to taste good and it's supposed to make our lives better. And I definitely notice a difference when I don't eat well, how I feel. And so I just think about, you know, the millions of Americans who struggle with food insecurity, who have to make the choices about eating cheap food because cheap food is what they can afford. And that's just that's just terrible. We we shouldn't have a system that forces people to have ill health because that's what they can afford. So I have a really visible farm too it's it's on a busy road, unfortunately, but I really kind of like that because as my farm grows and as this whole system becomes more visible, it's no longer just a flat field with one crop on it. You know, there's a variety of food there, from bees and an orchard and a market garden to, you know, maple syrup and mushrooms and hopefully hemp this year. I'd really like to grow CBD as well, but that's also a really big investment in the state of Indiana through the certification program. So, you know, all of it is it's baby steps towards, you know, a fully self-sustaining, biodiverse environment
Andrew Raridon
That's a lot on your plate there. All of these different things that you're jumping into that. So it's so exciting. You know what a what a stark contrast between what was previously growing on this piece of land and what's growing like all around you as well. Like what? It's just like a total 180.
Megan Ayers
Yeah, it's it's definitely different. And people do stop by and ask me questions, which I appreciate. And in fact, that's how I've met a couple of like minded farmers because they saw that I had like low tunnels out in the field and they said, Oh my gosh, that person is growing a market garden and they're using low tunnels. And so I actually ended up meeting them at market and they told me that they were slightly stalking me from the road because they were watching the farm get built over the last couple of months. And it just made me laugh because, you know, it is such a stark contrast to my neighbors.
Andrew Raridon
Yeah. Well, let's let's talk about your neighbors. I want to circle back to something that you mentioned sort of at the top of the interview here, and this is something that I'm I'm really interested in just as an academic, but also in terms of like this particular project, like the experiences that women have in farming spaces like farming is coded so masculine, especially this conventional kind of farming. So what have your experiences been like as a woman farmer and what what kinds of interactions have you had with your neighbors?
Megan Ayers
Well, so far the well, I'm going to I'm going to try to be generous here, as essentially...
Andrew Raridon
You don't have to be. That's not that's not the point of this at all. So believe me, like I've been asking that question for a lot of people for a long time, and I've heard a lot of wacky stuff, so I don't need to hold back on that.
Megan Ayers
Well, I mean, I I get that what I'm doing is really unfamiliar to them. And so they think they're being helpful by telling me to do what they know. And I get that that is fine. So I've been told to grow corn. I've been told to grow soybeans. I've been told that someone else can come and grow on my land for me. And I say thank you and you know, and give them a little laugh and tell them that I have my own plans and that I appreciate them looking out for me. People also tell me that my chickens are all going to get murdered and that don't I know that there's coyotes around here. You know, it's I don't know. I mean, I guess I just am, I'm not surprised by the pushback, not because of that's what I expect, but just because the culture in this area is purely corn, soy and hay. And that's OK. That's totally fine. They can continue to do that because that's what they know and they're good at it and they're set up for that, you know, I mean, we're talking about generations of family farms in this area. And so, yeah, I do things a little differently and they think I'm a little crazy. I'm pretty sure that they think that I'm bound for failure. And that's kind of awesome because I want to prove them wrong and I want them to see that there's another way that it can be done. And and it's not for everybody, and that's OK, but I'm not trying to sell, you know, like I'm not looking out on my farm as a return on investment. What I'm looking to do is make the soil better and make this tiny little 11 acre environment that I live in healthier and better than when I started. So that's not going to be it's not going to look like what they do, and I'm not going to use the same tools. And and that's OK.
Andrew Raridon
I like this this idea of like, I want to prove them wrong. I know how I mean that's bad ass, you know, like, is there room for other people to do this as well, right? I mean, you're kind of a pioneer. You're kind of out of the frontier. And in a sense, carving out a piece of the conventional row crop land out there in in your in your area. Is there room for other people to do this?
Megan Ayers
Absolutely. There's room for everyone to do this. The coolest thing I think that farming offers is its accessibility, really. I mean, yes, getting land is really hard. It's really expensive. And it's a complex system that if you are not born into, it can be really daunting. But all you need is a pot and some soil. I mean, honestly, like, that's how I started. It was growing in silly pots. You know, my my sad little tomato plant and my sad little pepper plant on the like freaking fire escape of an apartment. But you know, at the end of the day, that's the whole thing is like farming is about growth and you know, you're growing your food, you're growing your knowledge, and you're also being a part of an ancient human tradition. And I think that that's really beautiful. It's not about trying to, you know, grow this many bushels and looking at the the market and how much that market will bear for, you know, x amount of input in this fertilizer. You know, it's about feeding people and connecting with others through this thing that we've always done, we've always farmed and farming has led to, you know, civilization. So why not take this opportunity to use it as a tool to connect with other people, as well as to teach other people that there is another way to feed our families and to feed each other.
Andrew Raridon
Yeah, well said.
Megan Ayers
Thanks.
Andrew Raridon
You're touching on all, all of these different points that I was hoping we would get to hear in terms of like what you want to do in this bigger impact that you're having on the community. And like the the the way that it's sort of politicized even a little bit. I mean, this is yeah, this is really exciting to hear.
Megan Ayers
Yeah, it is really interesting to me that food has become political as well. I consistently try to fight back against the idea that farmers markets are a place for, you know, like soccer moms because farmers markets are a place for everyone, especially people with kids. We are so excited about meeting kids and helping them discover that like food is colorful and delicious and fresh, lots and lots of farmers markets take snap and take wic vouchers. Also, the Senior Market Nutrition Program is available in lots of different markets, so even for some people who feel like those price points are out of their reach, there are a ton of programs locally and nationally that not only serve people who have limited access to fresh food, but also increase those dollars values either through grants or state programs. And so I don't know when when I think of farmers markets, I want people to think of a community gathering space where there's fresh food and live music and crafts for kids or educational programs. You know where you can come and meet a goat maybe it's, you know, it's not just the rich person's grocery that happens to be outside on Saturdays, you know?
Andrew Raridon
Yeah. Yeah. So this is a tension that maybe we can dive into a little bit because on the one hand, we want this food to be affordable, but we also want farmers to get a living wage and we don't have a lot of support sort of built in in the middle in order to help them do that. So do you think that farming for you is financially viable? I mean, you said you have a full time job and a part time job and you're farming on top of this. I mean, is this something that you see that will be able to sustain you or is this is it not quite there yet?
Megan Ayers
Well, it is definitely not quite there yet. Presently, I farm. I work so I can farm, and that's OK. But I do want to make farming my full time job. And of course, that's going to require a lot of hustle on my part, but it's also going to mean that I need to diversify. And that's, you know, that's right back into that problem of monoculture. The thing that's so great about a market farm or farming on a small scale is that if something terrible happens and one of my crops fails, it's not the end of the world because I'm not relying on one single crop to feed my family. I I'm relying on a large variety of fruits, vegetables, berries, you know, nuts, eggs, the whole shebang. So, you know, it's any time you put and I hate to use this, but it's really apropos. Any time you put all of your eggs in one basket, that's a problem. So I think that the diversity of farming on the small scale is really helpful to those who want to get into farming and is really helpful to those who are interested in changing food systems because we're not contributing to the problem. Instead, we are growing a community that cares very much not only about the nutrient dense food that we're creating, but also the system in which it exists and creating access for people, all people, regardless of where they live and how much their income is.
Andrew Raridon
This is really encouraging to hear that there's more people like you that are coming to Indiana that are wanting to do this because I think this is the kind of vision that a lot of us who are in this space have, right? So it's cool to see other people that share that and want to carry that forward. I want to know what what you're worried about. I guess one of these prompts that I really like is the one when I lie awake at night, I...
Megan Ayers
What keeps me awake is the the fear that I can't do enough. I am just one person, and certainly I'm a person who can create community, who can support others, who can use my voice to speak out about these issues that I'm passionate about. But at the end of the day, it's just me and what I can muster in 12 to 16 hours. So and I'm not a young chicken either. I I'm 41 right now, and so luckily, I, you know, I have my health and and I'm mobile and I'm capable and I'm passionate and those are all good things. But there's definitely an expiration date on those, and I am committed to farming in a way that improves the health and well-being not only of the soil, but of myself and the people around me. And so that's that's definitely that worries me because I don't I don't have kids and and I am pretty isolated here and I am meeting some really cool other female farmers in the area who are just really inspiring to me. But at the same time, I think that they're probably thinking about the same thing. You know, how how much can one person do, especially when sometimes, like the local food movement feels very antiquated or or, you know, just... It feels like it's in a bubble and and that's really disappointing. The biggest city near me is Madison, Indiana, and I go there to, you know, go to the grocery store or go to the bank or or maybe even while not now because of COVID, but I would have gone there to go to a restaurant. But what I see is just fast food places everywhere. There's not a lot of access to local food or fresh food or food that doesn't come out of a freezer or off of a truck. So it's yeah, I mean, it's an uphill battle, and that does make me sad that it does often feel very isolating, like I'm kind of working in a void. But at the same time, I love a challenge, and if everybody was doing it, it certainly it would, it would be a lot easier to get fresh food. But at the same time, it's a it's a pendulum. So, you know, we're I feel like we're on the upswing and we're we're really working hard to get the word out that, you know, good food is good for you. It makes you feel good and it it doesn't just stop with you. I think that when more people are learning about good food and learning how to cook again and bringing in these new ingredients into their homes, they're going to share that. They're sharing it with their family, they're sharing it with their kids, they're sharing it with their friends. You know, for people who are unfamiliar with farmers markets, maybe just go for like a special dinner, go and pick up your ingredients for like a special thing that you want to make and then make it a habit. It's not like people have to shop at the farmer's market as their grocery store shop, though, of course I would love that. You know, and I would love to see more chefs shop at Farmer Farmer's Markets as well. There's just a lot of untapped resources with this fresh food that isn't being utilized as efficiently as it could be. So when I lie awake at night thinking it's only me, I try to soothe myself by thinking I'm just the beginning and what I'm doing is a beginning. It's not an end, and I'm not going to see the end. I'm not going to see it come to its full fruition, probably. And that's OK because I get to teach other people who are going to carry that forward. And that's again, it's the beauty of farming, you know? You know something and then you grow it and then you help someone know it and then they can grow it.
Andrew Raridon
So well, then let's fast forward to that future that you won't see necessarily come to fruition, maybe. What what do you see on your farm in 20 years? In 20 years, your farm will be what?
Megan Ayers
Oh, in 20 years? I hope that my farm is a protected space. Honestly, I would really like to work to create an environment that is educational. I would like to have people come and learn how to farm, learn how to take care of the Earth, be able to come and engage to find some quiet time to learn about the soil, to meet other people who are also like minded. And you know, I think the thing that's tough about farming is that it seems like you can't fail at it. I would love for people to come and try and fail because failing is when we learn and, you know, 11 acres is really not a lot of land when it comes to modern farming. My neighbor across the way, he's in his 90s. He has 800 acres that he farms regularly. And I see him every day, get in his truck and he drives away to go visit his 800 acres and makes sure that everything is fine. And I know that it's corn and it's soy, and his kids come and they help him. And that is it's a beautiful thing that it's been passed down and that he has this land and and his family and his farm, and it's all tied up. But I want that for me, too, but I want it to be people I'm not related to. You know, I want to have that accessibility that they can come and see just what 11 acres can do because it's not about, you know, how many bushels I'm producing. You know, it's about the way in which what has been produced works in conjunction with the rest of the land in order to be healthy and happy.
Andrew Raridon
That's a really interesting juxtaposition that you create here, right with your neighbor. The land and the farm is sort of something to be kept within and to possess, right? And for you, it's something to share out two very different kinds of legacies there. And so that that's that's a really interesting sort of back and forth. I hadn't thought about it that way before. Yeah, that's that's really nice. Thank you for sharing that.
Megan Ayers
Oh, it's my pleasure. I like the way that you see that. You know that it's a legacy. I didn't even think about it that way. It's just, I don't know. It just seems intuitive to me to want to share and to educate because like farming in a bubble doesn't do anything for anybody except for, like I said before, I contribute to this system that is really kind of backward when it comes to our health and and our planet. So not, again, not that conventional farming is bad. I don't want to say that in any way, but there's just other ways and ways that are really good for the Earth and good for the animals that we're stewards of. And I think that stewardship is an important word for me because I don't farm, again, you know, to put a bunch of money in the bank. It is about stewardship. I really feel that it's a calling. And it's something that heals the people that do it as well as the Earth.
Andrew Raridon
Excellent. Megan, this has been great. I'm really grateful that I got a chance to talk to you just on a personal level, but I'm really grateful that you were willing to share out in this way because this is going to be really nice for people to hear. I think this is going to resonate with them in a way that that's going to be really cool. So thank you for. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me today.
Megan Ayers
Oh, thanks, Andrew. I appreciate it.
Liz Brownlee
As always, this is the Hoosier Young Farmers podcast brought to you with support from Indiana Humanities, the Hoosier Young Farmers Coalition and the National Young Farmers Coalition. The podcast is produced by Alex Chambers and I'm Liz Brownlee, president of the Hoosier Young Farmers Coalition, to learn more about how we're updating the narrative on food and farming in Indiana go to Hoosier YFC dot O R G backslash stories. Thanks for listening!
Alex Chambers
All right.
Liz Brownlee
Hey, everyone, this is Liz Brownlee with a Hoosier Young Farmer podcast bonus episode. If you've listened to our podcast, you know each one is a medley of farmers voices. But we wanted to give you a chance to hear a few uncut conversations, too, because these people are awfully smart. This is a Conversation With Megan Ayers. Megan is the founding farmer and as you'll hear, chicken wrangler at Unvarnished Farm in Deputy Indiana, not too far from the Ohio river in the southeast part of the state. Megan's only been there a couple of years, but before that she was an urban farmer in Cincinnati. She spoke with Andrew Raridon, a professor of food studies and outgoing board member of the Hoosier Young Farmers Coalition.
Andrew Raridon
Do you have any questions about like how this will go or what what we're going to chat about or anything like that?
Megan Ayers
No, your email was really thorough and I'm prepared. I'm just sorry that I'm so congested. I got diagnosed with COVID 19 the other day.
Andrew Raridon
No, you're kidding me.
Megan Ayers
So I'm yeah,
Andrew Raridon
I'm so sorry.
Megan Ayers
I feel, yeah, I'm I feel really lucky because my symptoms are pretty mild. I just had a fever a couple like last week for a couple of days and I was tired, but I was like, I'm just sick. And then my my taste buds went away and my sense of smell went away. And so that's when I was like, Oh, OK, maybe I should get tested, dummy. So as soon as as soon as I got tested, my husband was like, I know you have it, I know you have it. And and I just came back positive like two days ago. So you know, talking to the state and whatnot,
Andrew Raridon
Are you up for it? Do you feel up for a conversation? Because I don't, if
Megan Ayers
absolutely OK.
Andrew Raridon
Because if you're not feeling well or if you feel at any point you're like, You know what? I just got to quit and lay down like that, it's totally fine.
Megan Ayers
So, no, I'm I'm fine.
Andrew Raridon
Yikes, that losing the taste buds as as a farmer, that's a little concerning.
Megan Ayers
Yeah, it's it is really weird because I do enjoy the foods. And yeah, I I was cooking dinner the other night and I was just like, I had no idea what I was doing because I couldn't smell what my food smelled like. So I didn't, you know, you just don't think about how much your sense of smell really affects just your day to day life. But I will say that one of my dogs is really enjoying the fact that I can't smell anything because he has terrible breath and so he doesn't get to kiss me regularly. But now, because I can't smell it and we were making out a lot
Andrew Raridon
A silver lining, right?
Megan Ayers
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker
Oh brother, oh, I'm I'm really sorry that you got diagnosed. I hope. I hope you and your husband are OK and that you bounce back quickly.
Megan Ayers
Yeah, yeah, we should be good. I just feel really lucky. And I and I'm sad, you know, for people who are affected really dramatically and who get hospitalized, I just can't imagine how terrifying that must be for them.
Andrew Raridon
I can't either, especially right now. I know, I don't know what your rates are down down there. I'm sure they're not better, much better than ours. But like our hospitals are pretty full, you know? And so, yeah, yeah, I just went, Oh yeah, what a weird. What a weird time. It's a weird time.
Megan Ayers
It's true. Yeah, we're aren't we, were officially like in a year now. I think, maybe.
Andrew Raridon
Just about, yeah, just about so. Yeah, hopefully I kept saying hopefully by this time next year, everything will be done, hopefully by this time next year, everything will be done. We can we can only hope. But yeah,
Megan Ayers
Yeah. Twenty twenty two. Here we come.
Andrew Raridon
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Well, Megan, this is what I would like to do. We're starting out with just sort of collecting some basic demographic information. So if you want to start by telling us like your name and the name of your farm and where you farm and what you raise or grow,
Megan Ayers
Sure. My name is Megan Ayers and I am the founder, farmer and chicken wrangler at Unvarnished Farm in Deputy Indiana, which is in southeastern Indiana. And it is an incredibly small town which has about the same population and age range, according to the census. So it is a tiny place and it is a place very much enmeshed in conventional row crop commodity farming. So the farm that I am on is just under 11 acres and has for, I think the entire life of the farm been soybean, corn and hay operation.
Andrew Raridon
I took a peek at your website and that's what it looked like to me as well. You have these giant open fields that look like they would grow corn on a normal in a normal season. So tell me how you ended up down there.
Megan Ayers
So I was doing some urban agriculture in Cincinnati for about six years and had a pretty thriving CSA going in my neighborhood. My husband and I began to talk about the possibilities of moving to a place where we had some land, and so he is the most well, we're both mobile as far as our jobs are concerned. So he found a job in Louisville and we began to search for a place to live and we just couldn't find anything that was even remotely affordable. So even like renting an apartment seemed kind of out of the realm of possibility for us. And so we just began to expand our search and we were expanding and expanding and expanding, and we ended up in Deputy Indiana, which is about an hour outside of Louisville. So, yeah, I there wasn't really a choice. I guess we didn't have that much to choose from. It was just kind of like it was here or it was there were like two other really small farms available. And everywhere we looked was the price of land was just really out of our reach and we both work full time and we both actually have part time jobs on top of our full time jobs as well. And so we were really surprised that it was so difficult to get a couple of acres. We figured it wouldn't be so hard. And then once we found a place that we liked and we could afford, then we ran into some issues with financing because we couldn't get a traditional mortgage for the farm. And then when we were told to go to the FSA, the FSA, well, we were told to go to a banks that give farm loans. And so the farm loan people said that we couldn't get farm loans because we didn't have any agricultural collateral. So because we came from the city, so I don't know how our mortgage broker made it happen, but he made it happen somehow. And so we ended up on this piece of land that needs a lot of healing. Really. I just did a soil test the other day, and we have like no nitrogen in the soil and no phosphorous in the soil. And so I have a market garden, but I also do eggs with laying hens and geese. So I've been doing cover cropping in this last year and rotational grazing with my geese and my hens just to get some of that nitrogen back in the soil. But it's really been an uphill battle to try to just sort of just get some nutrients back in the soil. And I'm surrounded on all sides by traditional cover crop farmers. And so I'm getting also a lot of pesticide drift and also a lot of well-meaning gentlemen stopping by and telling me what I should do with my land as well. You know that I should be growing soybeans and I should be growing corn and or they'd be happy to grow something for me, you know, stuff like that. So. It's been a real transition, but there's a really fantastic community of young farmers around here, which I was surprised by. I just really enjoyed meeting them and feeling supported. When I talk about a growing possibility that isn't necessarily, you know, corn or soy.
Andrew Raridon
Oh man, there's so much here that I want to tease out, first of all, the difficulty that you have even getting a foothold. It's like the chicken or the egg, right? Like, you have to have this agricultural collateral to get farmland, and you can't have that unless you have farmland until you're like stuck in this like gray area here. Like how how frustrating is that?
Megan Ayers
Yeah, we actually were homeless for a couple of weeks in the transition because we we didn't think our house would sell really fast and it sold immediately. And so then we were kind of like just trying to find something and trying to find something. And when the financing fell through and when the loan officer was asking me if I had tractors or, you know, like just something, I joked and I was like, I have like 30 menopausal hens. You know, what's that going to get me? And she did not think that was funny. So it was really touch and go there for a while. And then, you know, once we finally did get the farm, it was more uphill battles with dealing with the soil and just trying to begin amending it, really, especially with no tractor. We don't have any tractor. We have nothing, you know?
Andrew Raridon
So what do you think that you need to...What do you want to see happen in the next year so that you feel like you have a foothold on your farm and on your land? What what do you think needs to happen?
Megan Ayers
Well, for me, you know, soil health is the most important because we can't do anything with plants unless the soil is working in conjunction with those plants. So the first thing I need to do is to continue to work on soil health, really. So continue that pasture rotation, continue cover crops, adding some soil amendments for the market garden, adding some bees as well. I'm just really it's a zero to 100 sort of game. It's a totally blank slate. And so we're literally building a farm from absolutely nothing. And when I say nothing, I mean nothing. We didn't even have like a lawn mower when we moved. So it was like that was our first big purchase was a giant lawn mower to, you know, mow 11 acres, which is just so silly. But you know, it had to happen.
Andrew Raridon
So how? Like, how did you come up with this dream? I mean, you say you don't come from a farming background, you came from an urban area. And now like, here you are in the middle of Indiana, in the middle of like Corn Country, Indiana. Like doing something totally different from what all of your neighbors are doing. So like, where where did that inspiration come from?
Megan Ayers
Yeah. So I hope my mom doesn't hear this, but we never ate fresh vegetables as a kid. It was all like canned and frozen, and I hated them. I thought they were so gross and we would have these standoffs at the dinner table where, you know, I would just sit there with my arms crossed and she would be like, You can't get up until you finish this soup, you know? And I'd be like, Oh, it's so gross lima beans. But all of that changed when I think I was probably five or six years old and our neighbor had a small garden in the back of her house, and I went over and I stole some cherry tomatoes. And, you know, like my little kids, mind was blown because I was like, This is a vegetable and it tastes like candy. This is so good. How come my food doesn't taste like this? And I guess I just sort of stored that memory away? And then when I first moved out, you know, my first apartment, I immediately started like container gardening. And then when I moved into a house, then I started like a small little garden. And then when we bought a house, I said immediately like, Well, I want chickens and I want to grow some more food. And so I just started that way and I started doing some research about the best way to farm when you have really limited space. And so I started learning about the role of soil health in the role of the abundance of food that one is going to grow. And I started learning about permaculture and biodiversity and how it's just one big system and how when we take away the fertility of the soil, we have to input synthetically into that system and that synthetic input kills all of the good stuff. That actually grows our food, and so I kind of just thought it was really obvious. Well, hey, I want to grow good food for as many people as I can in a way that is also going to heal the soil. So I started doing that and it made me feel really good and I thought, Well, if this food makes me feel good, then it's probably going to make other people feel good too. And so by feeding my community, I really engaged in a conversation about food as medicine and food as connection. And so it just sort of grew from there to the point where I wanted to stop doing what I was doing for my full time job and make it farming.
Andrew Raridon
Wow. So tell me more about this idea of food as medicine and food as connection. I mean, what exactly does that mean to you and what do you think that it means to the people that you're feeding?
Megan Ayers
Well, I think that as Americans, we have kind of become brainwashed to think that food is supposed to be easy and fast and really inexpensive. Now I am absolutely not advocating for expensive food, but I am advocating for a reworking of the food system because we've we've just become really....brainwashed isn't the right word. I guess just used to the idea that, you know, food is should have a really long shelf life and cost nearly nothing, but there is definitely a correlation between cheap food and ill health in our country. So I think of food not as just something that gives us the calories to continue to move every day, but it's something that, you know, it affects our mood and affects our sleep. It affects our ability to have energy throughout the day. And so that's why I think of it as medicine. It's, you know, it doesn't come in a spoon and it doesn't and it's supposed to taste good and it's supposed to make our lives better. And I definitely notice a difference when I don't eat well, how I feel. And so I just think about, you know, the millions of Americans who struggle with food insecurity, who have to make the choices about eating cheap food because cheap food is what they can afford. And that's just that's just terrible. We we shouldn't have a system that forces people to have ill health because that's what they can afford. So I have a really visible farm too it's it's on a busy road, unfortunately, but I really kind of like that because as my farm grows and as this whole system becomes more visible, it's no longer just a flat field with one crop on it. You know, there's a variety of food there, from bees and an orchard and a market garden to, you know, maple syrup and mushrooms and hopefully hemp this year. I'd really like to grow CBD as well, but that's also a really big investment in the state of Indiana through the certification program. So, you know, all of it is it's baby steps towards, you know, a fully self-sustaining, biodiverse environment
Andrew Raridon
That's a lot on your plate there. All of these different things that you're jumping into that. So it's so exciting. You know what a what a stark contrast between what was previously growing on this piece of land and what's growing like all around you as well. Like what? It's just like a total 180.
Megan Ayers
Yeah, it's it's definitely different. And people do stop by and ask me questions, which I appreciate. And in fact, that's how I've met a couple of like minded farmers because they saw that I had like low tunnels out in the field and they said, Oh my gosh, that person is growing a market garden and they're using low tunnels. And so I actually ended up meeting them at market and they told me that they were slightly stalking me from the road because they were watching the farm get built over the last couple of months. And it just made me laugh because, you know, it is such a stark contrast to my neighbors.
Andrew Raridon
Yeah. Well, let's let's talk about your neighbors. I want to circle back to something that you mentioned sort of at the top of the interview here, and this is something that I'm I'm really interested in just as an academic, but also in terms of like this particular project, like the experiences that women have in farming spaces like farming is coded so masculine, especially this conventional kind of farming. So what have your experiences been like as a woman farmer and what what kinds of interactions have you had with your neighbors?
Megan Ayers
Well, so far the well, I'm going to I'm going to try to be generous here, as essentially...
Andrew Raridon
You don't have to be. That's not that's not the point of this at all. So believe me, like I've been asking that question for a lot of people for a long time, and I've heard a lot of wacky stuff, so I don't need to hold back on that.
Megan Ayers
Well, I mean, I I get that what I'm doing is really unfamiliar to them. And so they think they're being helpful by telling me to do what they know. And I get that that is fine. So I've been told to grow corn. I've been told to grow soybeans. I've been told that someone else can come and grow on my land for me. And I say thank you and you know, and give them a little laugh and tell them that I have my own plans and that I appreciate them looking out for me. People also tell me that my chickens are all going to get murdered and that don't I know that there's coyotes around here. You know, it's I don't know. I mean, I guess I just am, I'm not surprised by the pushback, not because of that's what I expect, but just because the culture in this area is purely corn, soy and hay. And that's OK. That's totally fine. They can continue to do that because that's what they know and they're good at it and they're set up for that, you know, I mean, we're talking about generations of family farms in this area. And so, yeah, I do things a little differently and they think I'm a little crazy. I'm pretty sure that they think that I'm bound for failure. And that's kind of awesome because I want to prove them wrong and I want them to see that there's another way that it can be done. And and it's not for everybody, and that's OK, but I'm not trying to sell, you know, like I'm not looking out on my farm as a return on investment. What I'm looking to do is make the soil better and make this tiny little 11 acre environment that I live in healthier and better than when I started. So that's not going to be it's not going to look like what they do, and I'm not going to use the same tools. And and that's OK.
Andrew Raridon
I like this this idea of like, I want to prove them wrong. I know how I mean that's bad ass, you know, like, is there room for other people to do this as well, right? I mean, you're kind of a pioneer. You're kind of out of the frontier. And in a sense, carving out a piece of the conventional row crop land out there in in your in your area. Is there room for other people to do this?
Megan Ayers
Absolutely. There's room for everyone to do this. The coolest thing I think that farming offers is its accessibility, really. I mean, yes, getting land is really hard. It's really expensive. And it's a complex system that if you are not born into, it can be really daunting. But all you need is a pot and some soil. I mean, honestly, like, that's how I started. It was growing in silly pots. You know, my my sad little tomato plant and my sad little pepper plant on the like freaking fire escape of an apartment. But you know, at the end of the day, that's the whole thing is like farming is about growth and you know, you're growing your food, you're growing your knowledge, and you're also being a part of an ancient human tradition. And I think that that's really beautiful. It's not about trying to, you know, grow this many bushels and looking at the the market and how much that market will bear for, you know, x amount of input in this fertilizer. You know, it's about feeding people and connecting with others through this thing that we've always done, we've always farmed and farming has led to, you know, civilization. So why not take this opportunity to use it as a tool to connect with other people, as well as to teach other people that there is another way to feed our families and to feed each other.
Andrew Raridon
Yeah, well said.
Megan Ayers
Thanks.
Andrew Raridon
You're touching on all, all of these different points that I was hoping we would get to hear in terms of like what you want to do in this bigger impact that you're having on the community. And like the the the way that it's sort of politicized even a little bit. I mean, this is yeah, this is really exciting to hear.
Megan Ayers
Yeah, it is really interesting to me that food has become political as well. I consistently try to fight back against the idea that farmers markets are a place for, you know, like soccer moms because farmers markets are a place for everyone, especially people with kids. We are so excited about meeting kids and helping them discover that like food is colorful and delicious and fresh, lots and lots of farmers markets take snap and take wic vouchers. Also, the Senior Market Nutrition Program is available in lots of different markets, so even for some people who feel like those price points are out of their reach, there are a ton of programs locally and nationally that not only serve people who have limited access to fresh food, but also increase those dollars values either through grants or state programs. And so I don't know when when I think of farmers markets, I want people to think of a community gathering space where there's fresh food and live music and crafts for kids or educational programs. You know where you can come and meet a goat maybe it's, you know, it's not just the rich person's grocery that happens to be outside on Saturdays, you know?
Andrew Raridon
Yeah. Yeah. So this is a tension that maybe we can dive into a little bit because on the one hand, we want this food to be affordable, but we also want farmers to get a living wage and we don't have a lot of support sort of built in in the middle in order to help them do that. So do you think that farming for you is financially viable? I mean, you said you have a full time job and a part time job and you're farming on top of this. I mean, is this something that you see that will be able to sustain you or is this is it not quite there yet?
Megan Ayers
Well, it is definitely not quite there yet. Presently, I farm. I work so I can farm, and that's OK. But I do want to make farming my full time job. And of course, that's going to require a lot of hustle on my part, but it's also going to mean that I need to diversify. And that's, you know, that's right back into that problem of monoculture. The thing that's so great about a market farm or farming on a small scale is that if something terrible happens and one of my crops fails, it's not the end of the world because I'm not relying on one single crop to feed my family. I I'm relying on a large variety of fruits, vegetables, berries, you know, nuts, eggs, the whole shebang. So, you know, it's any time you put and I hate to use this, but it's really apropos. Any time you put all of your eggs in one basket, that's a problem. So I think that the diversity of farming on the small scale is really helpful to those who want to get into farming and is really helpful to those who are interested in changing food systems because we're not contributing to the problem. Instead, we are growing a community that cares very much not only about the nutrient dense food that we're creating, but also the system in which it exists and creating access for people, all people, regardless of where they live and how much their income is.
Andrew Raridon
This is really encouraging to hear that there's more people like you that are coming to Indiana that are wanting to do this because I think this is the kind of vision that a lot of us who are in this space have, right? So it's cool to see other people that share that and want to carry that forward. I want to know what what you're worried about. I guess one of these prompts that I really like is the one when I lie awake at night, I...
Megan Ayers
What keeps me awake is the the fear that I can't do enough. I am just one person, and certainly I'm a person who can create community, who can support others, who can use my voice to speak out about these issues that I'm passionate about. But at the end of the day, it's just me and what I can muster in 12 to 16 hours. So and I'm not a young chicken either. I I'm 41 right now, and so luckily, I, you know, I have my health and and I'm mobile and I'm capable and I'm passionate and those are all good things. But there's definitely an expiration date on those, and I am committed to farming in a way that improves the health and well-being not only of the soil, but of myself and the people around me. And so that's that's definitely that worries me because I don't I don't have kids and and I am pretty isolated here and I am meeting some really cool other female farmers in the area who are just really inspiring to me. But at the same time, I think that they're probably thinking about the same thing. You know, how how much can one person do, especially when sometimes, like the local food movement feels very antiquated or or, you know, just... It feels like it's in a bubble and and that's really disappointing. The biggest city near me is Madison, Indiana, and I go there to, you know, go to the grocery store or go to the bank or or maybe even while not now because of COVID, but I would have gone there to go to a restaurant. But what I see is just fast food places everywhere. There's not a lot of access to local food or fresh food or food that doesn't come out of a freezer or off of a truck. So it's yeah, I mean, it's an uphill battle, and that does make me sad that it does often feel very isolating, like I'm kind of working in a void. But at the same time, I love a challenge, and if everybody was doing it, it certainly it would, it would be a lot easier to get fresh food. But at the same time, it's a it's a pendulum. So, you know, we're I feel like we're on the upswing and we're we're really working hard to get the word out that, you know, good food is good for you. It makes you feel good and it it doesn't just stop with you. I think that when more people are learning about good food and learning how to cook again and bringing in these new ingredients into their homes, they're going to share that. They're sharing it with their family, they're sharing it with their kids, they're sharing it with their friends. You know, for people who are unfamiliar with farmers markets, maybe just go for like a special dinner, go and pick up your ingredients for like a special thing that you want to make and then make it a habit. It's not like people have to shop at the farmer's market as their grocery store shop, though, of course I would love that. You know, and I would love to see more chefs shop at Farmer Farmer's Markets as well. There's just a lot of untapped resources with this fresh food that isn't being utilized as efficiently as it could be. So when I lie awake at night thinking it's only me, I try to soothe myself by thinking I'm just the beginning and what I'm doing is a beginning. It's not an end, and I'm not going to see the end. I'm not going to see it come to its full fruition, probably. And that's OK because I get to teach other people who are going to carry that forward. And that's again, it's the beauty of farming, you know? You know something and then you grow it and then you help someone know it and then they can grow it.
Andrew Raridon
So well, then let's fast forward to that future that you won't see necessarily come to fruition, maybe. What what do you see on your farm in 20 years? In 20 years, your farm will be what?
Megan Ayers
Oh, in 20 years? I hope that my farm is a protected space. Honestly, I would really like to work to create an environment that is educational. I would like to have people come and learn how to farm, learn how to take care of the Earth, be able to come and engage to find some quiet time to learn about the soil, to meet other people who are also like minded. And you know, I think the thing that's tough about farming is that it seems like you can't fail at it. I would love for people to come and try and fail because failing is when we learn and, you know, 11 acres is really not a lot of land when it comes to modern farming. My neighbor across the way, he's in his 90s. He has 800 acres that he farms regularly. And I see him every day, get in his truck and he drives away to go visit his 800 acres and makes sure that everything is fine. And I know that it's corn and it's soy, and his kids come and they help him. And that is it's a beautiful thing that it's been passed down and that he has this land and and his family and his farm, and it's all tied up. But I want that for me, too, but I want it to be people I'm not related to. You know, I want to have that accessibility that they can come and see just what 11 acres can do because it's not about, you know, how many bushels I'm producing. You know, it's about the way in which what has been produced works in conjunction with the rest of the land in order to be healthy and happy.
Andrew Raridon
That's a really interesting juxtaposition that you create here, right with your neighbor. The land and the farm is sort of something to be kept within and to possess, right? And for you, it's something to share out two very different kinds of legacies there. And so that that's that's a really interesting sort of back and forth. I hadn't thought about it that way before. Yeah, that's that's really nice. Thank you for sharing that.
Megan Ayers
Oh, it's my pleasure. I like the way that you see that. You know that it's a legacy. I didn't even think about it that way. It's just, I don't know. It just seems intuitive to me to want to share and to educate because like farming in a bubble doesn't do anything for anybody except for, like I said before, I contribute to this system that is really kind of backward when it comes to our health and and our planet. So not, again, not that conventional farming is bad. I don't want to say that in any way, but there's just other ways and ways that are really good for the Earth and good for the animals that we're stewards of. And I think that stewardship is an important word for me because I don't farm, again, you know, to put a bunch of money in the bank. It is about stewardship. I really feel that it's a calling. And it's something that heals the people that do it as well as the Earth.
Andrew Raridon
Excellent. Megan, this has been great. I'm really grateful that I got a chance to talk to you just on a personal level, but I'm really grateful that you were willing to share out in this way because this is going to be really nice for people to hear. I think this is going to resonate with them in a way that that's going to be really cool. So thank you for. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me today.
Megan Ayers
Oh, thanks, Andrew. I appreciate it.
Liz Brownlee
As always, this is the Hoosier Young Farmers podcast brought to you with support from Indiana Humanities, the Hoosier Young Farmers Coalition and the National Young Farmers Coalition. The podcast is produced by Alex Chambers and I'm Liz Brownlee, president of the Hoosier Young Farmers Coalition, to learn more about how we're updating the narrative on food and farming in Indiana go to Hoosier YFC dot O R G backslash stories. Thanks for listening!
Alex Chambers
All right.
Bonus Episode: Full Interview with Dan and Julie Perkins
Episode to come!
